Author Topic: Roll Cage Tubing  (Read 28987 times)

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Offline Dan Stokes

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Roll Cage Tubing
« on: August 05, 2007, 06:02:20 PM »
I know - all you bike guys are saying  "WHAT?!"  In a car (you know - those things with 4 wheels), it's a good idea to install rollover protection.  So here's the question - does the tubing need to be DOM, or will welded tubing be OK?  There's a huge difference in price, and it seems like welded tubing should be more than adequate (I've never seen it split open after an accident, but that's from a sample size of 1).

I perused the rule book, and it talks a lot about construction methods and tubing size, but I couldn't find any mention of tubing type, or requirements for welding standards.  I've always heard that chrome moly is supposed to be normalized following welding, but if it's in the book, I missed it - not that I'll EVER use that fancy tubing anyway.  I'd use aluminum, but I don't have a TIG (just foolin' on that one).

Another related question - I'm building the car as if it might go 200 some day - not likely with the six.  So, how much cage do I need?  I was planning on a 12 point (8 points inside the car, two bars out the front to stiffen the front frame, 2 points in the rear).  Am I on the right track?  Joe and Keith and I already went over the seat braces and seatbelt anchors, so I think I know what to do there.

Thanks for your help
Dan
Wilmington, NC - by the sea

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Offline Sumner

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Re: Roll Cage Tubing
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2007, 06:25:56 PM »
................  So here's the question - does the tubing need to be DOM, or will welded tubing be OK?  There's a huge difference in price, .................Dan

I guess I would have to ask in the total price of the car and safety equipment what percentage of the cost would the difference in the two be???

This just came up on another board I'm on and here is how the differences in types was explained:

Quote
ERW Electric resistance Welded
The majority of tube sold is ERW. This tube is produced by cold forming a strip of steel into a tube then welding the seam. ERW tube can be identified by the blue strip down one side of the tube where it has been welded.

CDS Cold Drawn Seamless (sometimes just called seamless)
A solid steel bar is drawn over a mandrel to form a tube resulting in excellent dimensional tolerances and even material properties throughout the tube.

DOM Drawn Over Mandrel
ERW tube is cold drawn through a die and over a mandrel as an extra process to improve surface finish and dimensional accuracy. There may also be heat treatment during the course the drawing process. This product is a lower cost alternative to CDS, but with similar physical qualities.

I asked about any differences in strength and haven't seen a reply to that yet,

Sum

Offline Dan Stokes

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Re: Roll Cage Tubing
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2007, 06:56:01 PM »
Sum -
Thanks for your reply, and I'm pleased that we have more info (hopefully) coming on this.  To answer your questions - this is a definitely LOW BUCK operation - I'm retired on a very fixed income.  The car is a '78 Camaro, and from S&W the kit is about $275 in EWS and $500 in DOM.  So, almost twice as much.  I don't expect to be over 135 for some time, but my wife is VERY safety conscious so I need to do the 'cage to help her feel better about the whole deal.  Besides, it's a good idea, and who knows, I may find the Chevy Six speed secrets.  My total investment at this point is about $1200, including the price of the car.  I have another $400 in speed parts waiting to go on the engine, once I dig up the $$ to get the head done.

So we'll see where this thread leads.

Thanks again
Dan
Wilmington, NC - by the sea

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Offline Peter Jack

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Re: Roll Cage Tubing
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2007, 07:11:42 PM »
Dan:

ERW is generally made from SAE 1010 / 1015 grade of steel while DOM is made from SAE 1020. The chemical analysis is a little different and the bender definitely struggles more bending the DOM. I don't know how that translates to the actual construction of the cage but I do know that the DOM is stronger and there aren't the welding and heat treating problems that you'd generate with 4130.

Pete

Offline Chicane

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Re: Roll Cage Tubing
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2007, 12:16:53 AM »

  So here's the question - does the tubing need to be DOM, or will welded tubing be OK? 

This topic is and can be very subjective. I have dealt with this very question numerous times in several different sanctioning bodies of racing and have seen and hear just about everything. I did find the following however, straight out of the ECTA as quoted by a chassis builder:

Quote
Mild Steel vs. 4130 Material

There is a myth that a chassis constructed of 4130-chrome molly is “stronger” than mild steel one. While 4130 is a stronger material, the rules allow us to use a thinner wall thickness (.083 8 .065). Therefore, the 4130 structure will be 25 to 30% lighter than mild steel. This may or may not be a consideration in your planning. Other factors to consider are the cost (about $900 more for 4130) and ease of construction. A mild steel chassis can be MIG welded (Metal Inert Gas) while the 4130 tubing requires the TIG method (Tungsten Inert ~Gas) and must be done by a professional.


Mild Steel Wall Thickness

Although the rulebook only requires .120” wall tubing thickness in a mild steel application, it would be wise to use .134 (11 ga.). You must be aware that .120 wall tubing can vary by production runs and can be within acceptable industry mill spec standards yet being under the minimum .120 nominal wall thickness! (Since NHRA has instituted the .118 minimum, I have had to repair many “new” cars as thin as .113!)
 
When ordering tubing from a steel supplier, specify ASTM A51 3 Type 5, DOM (Drawn-Over-Mandrel). This material is a cold drawn electric resistance welded tube with all flash removed. Each tube is tested for soundness of weld. It is made from 1020 steel in walls up to 10 gauge and 1026 steel in walls heavier than 10 gauge. Normalizing and cold drawing over a mandrel makes DOM a uniform and precision Product. It is preferred over seamless tubing for it’s excellent O.D. & I.D. concentricity.
 
Cold Drawn Seamless Tubing (ASTM A519) is another good choice but availability in .134 wall thickness is limited. It is made from 1026 steel, produced to OD & ID dimensions; and it is furnished in “As Drawn” condition. Cold Drawn Seamless offers good surface quality and increased mechanical properties over hot finished seamless tubing.

Obviously, it is going to up to the end user (the sanctioning body and the class in which you build your chassis to) to what your roll cage requirements will be. We can talk all day long about material... but it doesnt mean diddley if doesnt meet the requirements for your chosen class, vehicle weight, speed and in the respective sanctioning body.

IMHO, to further the material thought process, unless your entire chassis (frame/unibody etc) is made up of ChroMo... you will be inspecting it for cracks 10 times more than all other materials combined. Not to mention that you'll need someone that knows ChroMo and the requirements to properly weld it. Embrittlement is the biggest issue with ChroMo.

Food for thought in the outside world of racing, any new chassis requiring a 'stamp' or certification will be required to be at a minimum of DOM to meet upcoming rules and regulations. SCTA-BNI, USFRA requirements are different... as are that of the American Iron Series etc etc. It can be of some insight to study the 'other' sanctioning bodies to where their rules on materials are going because it is a good representation of where technology and the science of safety is headed. What is worth your safety and your life is solely up to you. The fact remains that there is nothing wrong with Mild Steel. In fact, if you wad up your car... MS and DOM are going to be the ones who win the war... unless your entire chassis is made up of ChroMo. Ask the builders of SCCA, FIA and NASCAR chassis. But in my opinion... I would choose DOM. The few extra bucks is worth it... just like it is in consideration to your driving suit. Do you feel safe in a SFI 5 or an SFI 20 ?? That can only be answered by you.

Some people believe that 4130 chromemoly cars are stronger than mild-steel cars. I dont believe this to be necessarily true. While 4130 tubing is a stronger material, because it’s made out of an alloy steel, the rules let us use thinner material (.083- and .065-inch wall). Thus, a stronger material that has a thinner wall is about as strong as a thicker-wall mild steel. The 4130 chassis is going to be 20- to 25-percent lighter because it’s made out of thinner material; there’s simply less steel in the car. Basically, what you’re paying for when you buy a 4130 car is weight reduction. In a basic cage, you pay about $XXX extra to save 70 to 80 pounds.

Now, some guys would pay a fortune for 70 to 80 pounds. But, you have to ask yourself: “Could I spend $XXX somewhere else, and be better off?” If you have cast-iron cylinder head on your engine, and you want a 4130 chassis, you’d be better off buying an aluminum head (that is if the rules would allow this). If you’re going to go fast you probably should consider 4130, but remember the difficulties and challenges involved with using it. The only real disadvantage to 4130 is that it must be TIG-welded for any serious effort. That means every single accessory, bracket and tab should be TIG-welded. For the first-time, build-it-yourself type of guy, this is not the way to go. In fact, he shouldn’t even consider it. Chromemoly is for a higher-skilled, more capable fabricator. Mild steel, on the other hand, is extremely forgiving.

Just a few thoughts... and an opinion. When you study rule books from different sanctioning bodies long enough... and talk to those doing the actual 'Tech' inspection... you learn a little more than hear-say.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2007, 12:18:59 AM by Chicane »

Offline Peter Jack

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Re: Roll Cage Tubing
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2007, 02:01:42 AM »
Chicane has backed up what I said with a little more detail and a slightly more firm answer. I agree that if the car might ever go 200 mph whether it's with you as the owner or some future owner then the DOM tubing is the best way to go. This is especially true of a car designed with the Salt in mind as the addition of weight seems to be necessary anyway if you're going to make something that big go really fast.

Pete

Offline revolutionary

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Re: Roll Cage Tubing
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2007, 08:50:31 AM »
If you do get welded tube and you plan on making any bends yourself make absulutely sure the the sem is facing the inside of the bend.  It can and will split.
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Offline Dan Stokes

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Re: Roll Cage Tubing
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2007, 09:57:18 AM »
Thanks all for your input.  Basically, my plan is to buy a kit and install it.  Being a gen 2 Camaro, these are readily available from at least 3 sources.  I'm leaning toward S&W, as Dave Maty used theirs and it seems to have worked out pretty well for him.  I'll have bit of extra fab work to do to get the shoulder belt properly located and the seat back braced, but I think I can handle that OK.  If the EWS tubing may go out of compliance, it may be worth it to upgrade to DOM - I'll chat with Keith and Joe on that.

Again - thanks ALL
Dan
Wilmington, NC - by the sea

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Offline revolutionary

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Re: Roll Cage Tubing
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2007, 06:28:34 PM »
The S&W kits seem to fit better than most and the price is usually right on their stuff.
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Offline Dan Stokes

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Re: Roll Cage Tubing
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2007, 03:25:50 PM »
I ordered the cage from S&W thru Delaware Chassis Works, and Joe is more than comfortable with the EWS.  Those of you who know him would know how extremely safety conscious he is, so I'm pretty comfortable going with his suggestion.  So I'll mock it up and have a REAL welder come weld it all up.  My welds look like chicken s#it compared to what a real welder can do.  And it's MY buttocks on the line.  Seems like crappy welds void any fancy tubing you might spring for.

Thanks for all your input.

Dan
Wilmington, NC - by the sea

ECTA idiot, Bonneville volunteer

Offline team_cougar

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Re: Roll Cage Tubing
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2007, 08:45:51 AM »
Hey Dan,
How did your cage construction go? Got any pics? Are you happy with what you have as opposed to what you think you needed?
Andy White
Huntersville NC
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Offline panic

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Re: Roll Cage Tubing
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2007, 12:33:33 PM »
Re: make absulutely sure the the sem is facing the inside of the bend"

I've seen the following arguments:
1. the seam must face the inside, because it's fairly strong in compression, but not in tension
2. the seam must face the outside, because it's fairly strong in tension, but not in compression
3. the seam must be on the bend line so that the distortion is minimized.

Does anyone have any actual engineering data on this?

Offline panic

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Re: Roll Cage Tubing
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2007, 12:54:02 PM »
If you can find a commercial kit that suits your needs go for it.
However, if you're trying to get the most protection for the least amount of metal, increasing the OD of the tube is far better than any other method (i.e., wall thickness, 4130 vs. 1015).
With the same 1-3/4" OD, an increase in wall thickness from .065" to .083" adds about 23.8% to the stiffness at a weight penalty of 26.3% - you don't even "get what you pay for".
With the same 1-3/4" OD and wall thickness, moly is perhaps 30% stronger (breakage resistant) than 1015 when properly heat-treated - but not stiffer (bending resistant). Moly is "safer" (will withstand more impact before destruction) but no more effective in holding the chassis together than mild steel.
With the same .065" wall thickness, an increase from 1-3/4" OD to 2" OD (not intrusive in any but the closest quarters) adds about 51.4% to the stiffness at a weight penalty of only 14.8%.
In addition, all commercial kits are "made to a price", and frequently include areas that can be substantially improved with minor additions at little expense. The obvious ones (gussets, doubling support plates) are not the only ones.

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Offline jimmy six

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Re: Roll Cage Tubing
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2007, 02:48:16 PM »
Dan, I am not familiar wit the ECTA rules for log books but at SCTA sanctioned meets we see their vehicles. If you are ever planning on coming to a SCTA sanctioned meet PLEASE take the time to fill out the first page of the book concerning the construction. You would be surprised how many are not filled out. As the constructor you will know what is used. This is especially important whan a vehicle is sold and the logbook goes with it. This is a good time for all who have vehicles to look at the book and make sure it is filled out properly.

Upon getting a log book I would immediatly put it in a 3 ring binder to keep it in good shape. The binder can hold a "kids" pencel zipper packet to keep membership cards pit passes and other necessary stuff. I also keep reciepts for fire bottles in mine in those clear folders..

You didn't say what type of 6 cylinder, straight or bent, you are going to use but straight ones out of Brazil are making 1000+ HP which I believe might make a 200 mph run no problem for your Camaro.

Good luck
First GMC 6 powered Fuel roadster over 200, with 2 red hats. Pit crew for Patrick Tone's Super Stock #49 Camaro

Offline willieworld

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Re: Roll Cage Tubing
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2007, 04:19:04 PM »
caution  the cage in your car must be 1 5/8 tube all drag race cages are made of 1 5/8 also willie buchta
« Last Edit: December 05, 2007, 12:26:30 AM by willieworld »
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