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Author Topic: Getting ready for Bonneville(rebuild)  (Read 839572 times)

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Offline jl222

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Re: Getting ready for Bonneville(rebuild)
« Reply #1815 on: October 11, 2012, 10:25:17 PM »
Are (were) those aluminum rods?


  Yes... forged billets.

       JL222

Offline jl222

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Re: Getting ready for Bonneville(rebuild)
« Reply #1816 on: October 11, 2012, 10:52:53 PM »


  J&S East Valley Garage now has our block to repair, They just repaired the 911 roadster block that ran at the
World Finals.

  Chief Galbraith is repairing the head [new seats and spark plug hole and threads + grinding and polish] and Walt Waiton is welding up the erosion and crack below seat in intake port. Walt has a welder that doesn't put much heat in the head while welding.

  Hard to figure out exactly what happened 1st, but Chief pointed out if the rod was coming loose and the piston hit the head it would collaspe the ring lands and the rings wouldn't seal. That would let the burned gasses blow a hole in the piston.
  That would explain while the hole is on the intake valve side instead of the hot exhaust side.


                      JL222

Offline manta22

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Re: Getting ready for Bonneville(rebuild)
« Reply #1817 on: October 12, 2012, 11:49:01 AM »
jl222;

I wouldn't recommend using aluminum rods in LSR. In short track or drag racing they're OK if you change them now & then. The problem is that aluminum has much lower fatigue strength than steel and in applications where you're running high power for a long time, such as LSR, off-shore boat racing, or NASCAR, aluminum rods are much more likely to fail than good forged steel rods such as Oliver, Crower, Carillo, etc.

I'm not trying to be a know-it-all-- just a suggestion.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Offline jl222

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Re: Getting ready for Bonneville(rebuild)
« Reply #1818 on: October 14, 2012, 12:55:43 PM »
jl222;

I wouldn't recommend using aluminum rods in LSR. In short track or drag racing they're OK if you change them now & then. The problem is that aluminum has much lower fatigue strength than steel and in applications where you're running high power for a long time, such as LSR, off-shore boat racing, or NASCAR, aluminum rods are much more likely to fail than good forged steel rods such as Oliver, Crower, Carillo, etc.

I'm not trying to be a know-it-all-- just a suggestion.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

  Niel.. there must be a reason all the top fuel and alcohol racers don't use chomemoly rods. I understand its because aluminum has more give and doesn't beat the bearings out.

  I don't believe the rod failure was the rods fault, it either wasn't tightend right our it was  torched off at the top end. The pin was even torched.

  JL222

Offline manta22

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Re: Getting ready for Bonneville(rebuild)
« Reply #1819 on: October 14, 2012, 04:01:45 PM »
JL222;

My guess is that the aluminum rods give them lower reciprocating weight and therefore lower moment of inertia. This allows the crank to accelerate faster.

Looking at the broken end of your rod can probably reveal whether it was a fatigue failure

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Offline bvillercr

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Re: Getting ready for Bonneville(rebuild)
« Reply #1820 on: October 14, 2012, 10:12:59 PM »
Who makes a steel rod strong enough?  I haven't seen any advertised that can handle mid to high hp motors.  Give u's some hints. :-D

Offline manta22

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Re: Getting ready for Bonneville(rebuild)
« Reply #1821 on: October 15, 2012, 12:54:28 PM »
bvillercr;

Try the usual guys-- Crower, Oliver, Carrillo, Lunati, etc. Call and ask those factories for their recommendations.  :roll:

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Offline 38flattie

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Re: Getting ready for Bonneville(rebuild)
« Reply #1822 on: October 15, 2012, 01:32:05 PM »
bvillercr;

Try the usual guys-- Crower, Oliver, Carrillo, Lunati, etc. Call and ask those factories for their recommendations.  :roll:

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Yea, that doesn't always work either!

I ordered a billet crank and rods from Crower. I specified that it was for a blown motor for 500+ HP- a Loooong ways from Langlo's HP. Now remember, these were one-off, custom made for the application!

When I decided to redo the engine this winter, and shoot for 700HP, I called and asked them if the parts I bought would handle the HP. The answer I got was- "we weren't even confortable with 500 HP!" WTF?

Point is, I don't know if anyone is going to say "yep, our stuff will handle it." The fact that you've had fair luck with the aluminum make me think I'd just keep running them, unless I really felt the rod gave out from fatigue, and it's already been stated that probably wasn't the problem.

Sorry to see the carnage, but I know you'll get it fixed, and go about your business as usual! :cheers:

« Last Edit: October 15, 2012, 01:57:21 PM by 38flattie »
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Offline jl222

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Re: Getting ready for Bonneville(rebuild)
« Reply #1823 on: October 15, 2012, 01:34:25 PM »
bvillercr;

Try the usual guys-- Crower, Oliver, Carrillo, Lunati, etc. Call and ask those factories for their recommendations.  :roll:

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

  I looked all those up and the most hp rating I could find was 1500.

  Only enough for 1.2 cylinders on a 10,000 hp top fuel motor :roll:

   Not going to call, as I'm not going against the experience of the many racers using aluminum rods in 500'' hemi's.

   JL222
« Last Edit: October 15, 2012, 01:48:58 PM by jl222 »

Online 4-barrel Mike

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Re: Getting ready for Bonneville(rebuild)
« Reply #1824 on: October 15, 2012, 02:52:14 PM »
Saenz rods?   :?

Mike
Mike Kelly - PROUD owner of the V4F that powered the #1931 VGC to a 82.803 mph record in 2008!

Offline jimmy six

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Re: Getting ready for Bonneville(rebuild)
« Reply #1825 on: October 16, 2012, 01:45:40 PM »
I have no clue on which rods to use for a high HP engine other that what has been stated. But, there is always one, is eveywhere getting enough oil. These "mini" engines are using squirters towards the pins. I'm sure 1/4 milers don't need this but maybe 5 milers do. Is the only oil to the pin splashed or from the oil rings and is that enough. If most of the oil is from rod side clearance are scrapers used and removing too much? Are vacuum pumps being used along with multi-segment dry sump pumps causing too much vacuum?

Heavy duty engines have rifle drilled rods to feed the pins. I have no idea if that can be done with aluminum or not. Cunningham will drill I beams but not H beams.

These are things not mentioned but might need to be addressed........Good Luck to all.........JD

First GMC 6 powered Fuel roadster over 200, with 2 red hats. Pit crew for Patrick Tone's Super Stock #49 Camaro

Offline manta22

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Re: Getting ready for Bonneville(rebuild)
« Reply #1826 on: October 16, 2012, 03:51:33 PM »
When talking to a rod manufacturer, it's necessary to talk to someone who knows what he is talking about, of course. Too many know-nothings are answering the phones these days. It is also necessary that the technically knowledgeable person understands that your application is one where you are operating at high power for a long time-- NASCAR, Le Mans, off-shore boat racing, etc--- NOT drag racing.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Offline jl222

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Re: Getting ready for Bonneville(rebuild)
« Reply #1827 on: October 16, 2012, 04:34:23 PM »
When talking to a rod manufacturer, it's necessary to talk to someone who knows what he is talking about, of course. Too many know-nothings are answering the phones these days. It is also necessary that the technically knowledgeable person understands that your application is one where you are operating at high power for a long time-- NASCAR, Le Mans, off-shore boat racing, etc--- NOT drag racing.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

  If moly rods would hold up in drag racing they would surely use them.

  Using aluminum rods for faster accelration is not the reason as they go from zero rpm t0 8500 or higher in a
heartbeat and is one reason they use slipperclutches. If moly rods held up think of the money saved from not replacing rods every 8 runs or less.

  I will be seeing a few top fuel racers in dec. and will get their answer. I suspect part of it is no give in moly rods
resulting in crank on ground or bearings being beat out. -to heavy for the piston speed.

  Nascar-Le Mans use short stroke motors [ not 43/8 --41/2 in'' and don't make near the hp we do.

  Off shore boats can't use the amount of fuel or very high rpms if they want to finish or have pits stops.

  The 911 roadster only runs to the 4 because they can't run a big enough fuel tank.

  I know that Fast Freddy uses over 30 gals fuel a run so don't compare Nascar-Le-Mans or off shore boat racing
with what were doing because their lacking on hp compared to high hp Bville engines

             JL222
« Last Edit: October 16, 2012, 04:52:08 PM by jl222 »

Offline Frankie7799

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Re: Getting ready for Bonneville(rebuild)
« Reply #1828 on: October 16, 2012, 04:45:59 PM »
Troy and John,
As a new guy to the boards Ive spent a lot of time reading alot of the builds and just finihsed up yours. Ive gotta say, what a great read its been. Lots of hard work, tenacity and perserverence on your part. Admittedly when I saw Langlo as a last namethoughts of Uncle/Brother Arely came to mind. As a long time drag racer, Ive witnessed many of Arleys kaboomers. Im glad at some point in the build that JOhn explained it was more the late Jay Roach that had more to do with those than Arley. I was blown away when looking at the 200 Club and saw that Arley was a long time memeber of it. Im glad I did go ahread and read the build.

SOrry to see the most recent carnage from B'ville. While I dont have any suggestions as to what casued it I hope you guys are able to get it repaired and put back toehter for either El Mirage in May or B'ville net August. Im hoping to go to El Mirage for my first taste of LSR next month ( weather permitting fo course lol )

I do have a suggestion for your windo dielema though and I dont recal seeing this offered up before ( but it may have and just missed it. I know it was metnioned that you guys roll the windows down for trailering the car and things of that nature. What about doing what the Pro Stock and Pro Mod guys do with the frameless windowed cars and bend up some small tubing and weld it to the inside of the bottom of the door ( im assuming the doors are still orginals and not 'glass ) and then have the tubing run along near the edges of the window and be fastened with some of those levers your currently using to hold the top edge in place. Either that or weld some dzus tabes on the frame and use 2-3 to hold the leaxn tot eh frame in addition to the levers you have now. That way itl hold on the run and then you can relase them when you need to put the car in the trailer. Follow what im saying? If something similar has been suggested before, please forgive me as I mustve missed it

Offline jl222

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Re: Getting ready for Bonneville(rebuild)
« Reply #1829 on: October 16, 2012, 05:16:33 PM »
 
  Frankie..yeah, ''cousin'' Arley owned the car, Jay the engines, Top Fuel a tough deal with no big sponsers.
  Jay made a lot of of parts himself Heads -clutch -fuel pump ect.

  Thanks for the window tips [I thought you were refering to the windows in the block at first] :roll:

  We think we have the widow blow out problem Fixed [up to 280 mph anyway] we attached two sections of 3/4
aluminum angle to top of door opening and we flex the window under them when closing.

  El Mirage will have to get a lot of rain before we run there and the Race Dirctor would have to give us permission to run out of the 200 mph lane. Otherwise it just a wasted trip.

            JL222