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Author Topic: Getting ready for Bonneville(rebuild)  (Read 810701 times)

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Offline Rex Schimmer

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Re: Getting ready for Bonneville(rebuild)
« Reply #1785 on: August 29, 2012, 02:13:00 PM »
Bucketlist said "My favorite description of such damage was long ago when a big name racer (I'm thinking Andretti, but don't quote me) was explaining a DNF. He said they had an oil pan failure at speed." My favorite is when Dan Gurney was asked what knocked him out of the 500 and he said it was a leaky radiator, in actuality the radiator was leaking because a rod had gone through it!

Now back to the hemi with only 7 rods!! John maybe you need to go to one of the top fuel titanium pans, I understand they will contain most rod exiting efforts.

Rex
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Offline 38flattie

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Re: Getting ready for Bonneville(rebuild)
« Reply #1786 on: September 02, 2012, 02:23:21 PM »
Have you guys figured out why there was an oiling failure?
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Offline jl222

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Re: Getting ready for Bonneville(rebuild)
« Reply #1787 on: September 03, 2012, 12:18:02 PM »
Have you guys figured out why there was an oiling failure?

  Haven't taken it apart yet but I took the rod cap off #4 and bearing looked like new just shiney spot
on part of outside edge? Also after manipulating the bashed windage tray out of the trashed pan,the
oil pickup screen was completely clear. We are thinking by the benchmarks on the failed rod parts it was not a one time failure but happened over time. Like maybe one side of rod didn't get torqued :-P
  This could have happened in our last minute haste to pull motor apart, BBhone cylinders after discovering rust and reassemble according to rod manufacturers directions.
  Which is '' Torque one side of rod in one steady pull to 90 ft lbs then the other. I felt the vibration but
engine will vibrate with a cylinder out. Things were vibrating on our tuneup run and on checking the rear tires we found that they had not reblanced the tires when I had them put the lettering on the outside :-o
 We figured this out when checking if there was dirty spots from removing the glued on weights "NO'' :roll:
 Had them reblanced in Wendover.
 Also these new tires when spun on balancing machine were wobbly and checking this the other day up to 60 thou out of round but new wheel out 30 thou  :roll: still have to check where wheel is out of round compared to where tire is out.

  JL222
 

Offline robfrey

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Re: Getting ready for Bonneville(rebuild)
« Reply #1788 on: September 08, 2012, 06:28:42 PM »
I doubt if you guys missed tightening one of the rod bolts. Was there enough rod left to see if the threads were still there? Maybe the threads gave way?
Do you still have all the rod bolts?
Are you confident that was just not an aluminum rod fatigue / failure?
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Offline jl222

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Re: Getting ready for Bonneville(rebuild)
« Reply #1789 on: September 08, 2012, 10:57:19 PM »
I doubt if you guys missed tightening one of the rod bolts. Was there enough rod left to see if the threads were still there? Maybe the threads gave way?
Do you still have all the rod bolts?
Are you confident that was just not an aluminum rod fatigue / failure?

  Will know more tomorrow, Troy is comming over [ I think] and we can take off the heads and pull the pistons.
  But troy said the bolt unscrewed from the rod. Manufacture's instructions also say to untorque bolts if engine sets unused which is a pain in the butt and we didn't do, but one really fast blown fuel roadster engine builder uses the same rods and doesn't back them off.

 Maybe Troy can post some pics tomorrow.

        JL222

 

Offline jl222

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Re: Getting ready for Bonneville(rebuild)
« Reply #1790 on: September 10, 2012, 11:06:26 AM »

  Troy will post pics when he gets a chance. Got the heads and pistons out yesterday, well all except
one. #5 got jambed up further than it belonged after rod broke and raised hell. after getting stuck the valves tried to open, hit the piston and as they couldn't open all the way broke the rocker stands [ I think]. Bottom of sleeve broken in #5 and 3/4'' hole in #6 sleeve. lifter stuck in #6 exhaust. Hopefully
$600 cam can be salvaged.
  Now were trying to figure out what happened first. Pics will show compleatly screwed piston, hole in middle but not melted around it but pushed out from bottom, hole on edge of piston by intake side and big crack from one side to other.
 The mistery is the erosion of aluminum between sparkplug and intake showing a lean condition? Air fuel
ratio shows between 12 and 9.7 but we only have one sensor on #3 exhaust could be a partial pluged
injector as we don't run a fuel filter. Would like to, but hard to find info on size for 13 gal min fuel pump.
 Just wondering after piston was stuck and not going around boosted fuel was still being blow into partially opening valves and acting like a blow torch? Valves were still sealing oil on top of them so if bent, not much surprisenly.
  Need to decide on repairing block. two windows needing pan rails, bottom of sleeve needa to be welded up and then bored to fit sleeve and maybe one other spot and lifter bores will have to be worked on.

    JL222

Offline dieselgeek

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Re: Getting ready for Bonneville(rebuild)
« Reply #1791 on: September 10, 2012, 11:23:52 AM »
JL,

Did you guys do your tuning on a Dynojet at Wide Open throttle only?

I've seen guys hurt EFI engines when running at Part Throttle (looks like you were running hardly any throttle at all) - due to not being able to really tune that area of a Fuel and Spark map.  Maybe the tune is not quite "on" on the part throttle areas? 
just throwing out some random idears, although I agree with you on the possibility of a bad injector, those things are sensitive to the slightest debris.  You can check it with a 9v battery, see if the injector clicks good and solid when you apply (very brief) voltage to it.

Offline jl222

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Re: Getting ready for Bonneville(rebuild)
« Reply #1792 on: September 10, 2012, 01:01:07 PM »
JL,

Did you guys do your tuning on a Dynojet at Wide Open throttle only?

I've seen guys hurt EFI engines when running at Part Throttle (looks like you were running hardly any throttle at all) - due to not being able to really tune that area of a Fuel and Spark map.  Maybe the tune is not quite "on" on the part throttle areas? 
just throwing out some random idears, although I agree with you on the possibility of a bad injector, those things are sensitive to the slightest debris.  You can check it with a 9v battery, see if the injector clicks good and solid when you apply (very brief) voltage to it.

  They did do partial throttle on the dyno and we have adjusted it after runs. Data log shows some 13teens at  110 kpa and less than 30% hrottle,but mostely in high 11ens and low 12ths, not sure of standing kpa at bville but figure 3-4 lbs boost [ hate kpa]. EFI is constanly changing AF ratio but in the 10ens and high 9ens when boost comes up.

              JL222 

Offline bvillercr

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Re: Getting ready for Bonneville(rebuild)
« Reply #1793 on: September 10, 2012, 02:54:45 PM »
Here are some photos of the damage.

Lots of metal in the gallie.



One demolished piston, rod and cylinder.



And a damaged head.



Offline hotrod

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Re: Getting ready for Bonneville(rebuild)
« Reply #1794 on: September 10, 2012, 03:47:44 PM »
How's the heat range on your plugs, any chance you got pre-ignition on that cylinder (blow torch from a red hot plug electrode)?

The puzzle to me is pre-ignition would normally just melt a hole in a piston like blow torch.
Since you run water injection, any chance you lost water supply to just that hole?
As I recall the way you inject that should not happen but thought I would ask.

The fact the piston was apparently holed from the bottom, is there any chance you had some FOD from something that got loose in the pan and got launched into the bottom of that piston by the rotating assembly? Are all the pieces parts that should have been the pan been accounted for?

Interesting failure in any case.

Larry


Offline manta22

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Re: Getting ready for Bonneville(rebuild)
« Reply #1795 on: September 10, 2012, 03:58:07 PM »
Any chance that cylinder injested something? from the looks of the cylinder head, something was rattling around the outside edge of the cylinder before it poked a hole in the piston-- maybe a loose bolt from somewhere? Was the spark plug from that cylinder fully intact when you removed it?

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Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Offline dieselgeek

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Re: Getting ready for Bonneville(rebuild)
« Reply #1796 on: September 10, 2012, 05:39:13 PM »
sure doesn't look like a tuning issue.   I'm with the FOD guys...   

Offline jdeleon

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Re: Getting ready for Bonneville(rebuild)
« Reply #1797 on: September 10, 2012, 08:01:49 PM »
The top of your head gasket looks suspect.

Offline Captthundarr

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Re: Getting ready for Bonneville(rebuild)
« Reply #1798 on: September 10, 2012, 09:54:30 PM »
Holy bits and pieces batman :-o Thats going to be tough to nail down.
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Offline jl222

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Re: Getting ready for Bonneville(rebuild)
« Reply #1799 on: September 10, 2012, 10:00:25 PM »
How's the heat range on your plugs, any chance you got pre-ignition on that cylinder (blow torch from a red hot plug electrode)?

The puzzle to me is pre-ignition would normally just melt a hole in a piston like blow torch.
Since you run water injection, any chance you lost water supply to just that hole?
As I recall the way you inject that should not happen but thought I would ask.

The fact the piston was apparently holed from the bottom, is there any chance you had some FOD from something that got loose in the pan and got launched into the bottom of that piston by the rotating assembly? Are all the pieces parts that should have been the pan been accounted for?

Interesting failure in any case.

Larry



 Larry heat range is N57DR... ran C59C for years 57 is colder.

Water injected just before blower and just after and before intercooler.

 Who knows exactly what happened but most of the rod except part of cap and part of rod still on crank is gone.
No bearings on whats left either and no sign of them but crank journal looks just fine :-D?
 No recognisable sigh of small end of rod either. Pin still in piston so hard to figure what pushed it out so close to middle.
  Fom the looks of head and spark plug it was blow torching allright but usually that would just melt the piston,not break it or a rod.

  Manta .. I think the hole got punched in the piston and that stuff was ratteling around below the valves. There was even some metal flakes way up in the intake manifold. Sparkplug was broken with most of ground strap melted off something hit the center electrode shoving it up and breaking the top.

  Dieselgeek.. yeah we think the tune was OK but will check for partial pluged injector.

  jdeleon... those dark spots are where there is no metal on the inside of head ''weight saving'' and oil from galley
collects there. Heads are o-ringed and reciever groves are on top of sleeves. No leaks there.

    JL222