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Author Topic: Getting ready for Bonneville(rebuild)  (Read 886789 times)

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Offline jl222

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Re: Getting ready for Bonneville(rebuild)
« Reply #1395 on: November 12, 2010, 01:52:48 PM »
yep    EDM process

  I should have said is anybody using rifle drilled rods and how are they working out as far as cooling piston crowns and oil pressure.
   
   JL222

I have never heard of rifle drilled aluminum rods for pin oiling. Has anyone? since I think that is what John uses. I know it is real popular with steel rods.

Tom G.

  I have learned that rifle drilling is mainly for wrist pin oiling and looking at Carrillo's site they offer drilling the rod at the cap for piston head cooling where squirters are not used but there steel rods not aluminum.
  I like the info on Bill Miller rods as they are forged from billet stock not just machined from billet stock.
 Still researching pistons and start ordering at first of year.
  I thing Al Teague switched to chrome moly rods after having rod problems but we haven't had problems with Brook's rods,except we can't get them now.

                      JL222

Offline SPARKY

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Re: Getting ready for Bonneville(rebuild)
« Reply #1396 on: November 12, 2010, 09:56:04 PM »
That sounds like a pretty serious problem to me 
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Offline jl222

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Re: Getting ready for Bonneville(rebuild)
« Reply #1397 on: November 12, 2010, 10:18:16 PM »
That sounds like a pretty serious problem to me 

  Aluminum rods have improved over the years.

               JL222

Offline maguromic

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Re: Getting ready for Bonneville(rebuild)
« Reply #1398 on: November 12, 2010, 10:41:55 PM »
Have you looked at getting the rods made in 7068 (Tennalum) ballistic aluminum? I know there at least two cars on the salt with rods made of this stuff. At one time Kaiser Aluminum who makes this stuff was looking for people to run it on the salt. Tony
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Offline jl222

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Re: Getting ready for Bonneville(rebuild)
« Reply #1399 on: November 13, 2010, 12:16:14 PM »
Have you looked at getting the rods made in 7068 (Tennalum) ballistic aluminum? I know there at least two cars on the salt with rods made of this stuff. At one time Kaiser Aluminum who makes this stuff was looking for people to run it on the salt. Tony

  Sounds interesting what's it like compared to 7075-T6?
  Bill Miller rods used to be made of 7075 but they changed in 1996 to an aluminum developed by Alcoa for Boeing which is lighter and 15% stronger and independent testing shows their forged billet rods 45% stronger than machined billets.

                            JL222

Offline bvillercr

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Re: Getting ready for Bonneville(rebuild)
« Reply #1400 on: November 28, 2010, 10:25:13 PM »
Looks like our road to rebuilding just got longer.  We need 8 new rods, pistons and sleeves, (possibly a cam), 4 new policarbinate windows, and a head and neck restraint system.  A lot to do before El Mirage, maybe we'll race only at Bonneville this year?

Offline jl222

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Re: Getting ready for Bonneville(rebuild)
« Reply #1401 on: November 29, 2010, 12:20:17 AM »
Looks like our road to rebuilding just got longer.  We need 8 new rods, pistons and sleeves, (possibly a cam), 4 new policarbinate windows, and a head and neck restraint system.  A lot to do before El Mirage, maybe we'll race only at Bonneville this year?

  And....rear electrical shutoff -redo door net mounts. Roll bar diagonal  braces are 5 7/8 in long though

Offline bobqzzi

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Re: Getting ready for Bonneville(rebuild)
« Reply #1402 on: December 18, 2010, 11:16:43 PM »
Sorry about the damage.  Have you looked into oil squirters for the undersides of the pistons? They can make a tremendous difference in piston temperatures. For something with such a large piston and such harsh use, 2 or 3 per piston would be best.

Offline jl222

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Re: Getting ready for Bonneville(rebuild)
« Reply #1403 on: December 18, 2010, 11:58:17 PM »
Sorry about the damage.  Have you looked into oil squirters for the undersides of the pistons? They can make a tremendous difference in piston temperatures. For something with such a large piston and such harsh use, 2 or 3 per piston would be best.

  I've thought about it for years I read an article about a turboed chevy in a drag Datson years ago that claimed a bunch of temperature drop [still havn't figured out how he measured it] but he claimed it helped alot and I guess some Diesels have them
 I've been waiting for the top fuel guys to do it and then copy them but not sure how to do it and it seems I would need an oil
cooler as the oil gets hot as is. Not sure if piston heat is our problem as the underside of piston shows no sign of heat but squirters should help as insurance also.
  Any ideas where to look?

               JL222

                 

Offline bobqzzi

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Re: Getting ready for Bonneville(rebuild)
« Reply #1404 on: December 19, 2010, 11:51:43 AM »
Many OEM engines come with them- most turbo 4 import engines, some northstar V8s, all diesels. All Nextel Cup cars F1,and LeMans cars as well- and none of those have the kind of 90 sec WOT runs you do.
The oil cools the bottom of the piston which in turn keeps the top of the piston from melting which looks like what happened.
There are basically 4 ways to do it:
1. A hole drilled in the big end of the rod with coresponding hole in the bearing. This is tough because of the timing and requires the rod oil feed hole be in the correct place.  Not really an option unless you are willing to do a new crank and rods.
2. Imports come with little banjo type squirters with the fixing bolt acting as a pressure relief valve which stays closed until 25psi or so. these are usually tapped into the main galley.  These are commonly available, but adapting them to an exisiting engine V8 could be a major issue. You can searc piston oilers on ebay to see some of these.  Here are some Nascar ones http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/8-Billet-Aluminum-Piston-Squirter-Oilers-Set-NASCAR-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem2a0c805283QQitemZ180598362755QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories
3. Holes are drilled into the main saddle which connect to the back of the main bearing- small orifice/check valves are then inserted.  this may be the best option. Mike Laws at BLP.com used to offer a kit for SBC that I think were like this- I don't see it anymore though, I PM'd him to see what was up  http://www.blp.com/pdf/NP2006.pdf
http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=16264&hilit=piston+and+oiler
4. External piping systems- these can take several forms- just a series of pipes inside the block or built into the pan. This just require the right parts and some patience I think
You mentioned needing an oil cooler- I'm kind of surprised you don't already have one. I think the best bet for a bville car is to use one of the many oil/water ones available and just plumb it into your existing engine cooling system they are cheap, compact and efficient

Offline jl222

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Re: Getting ready for Bonneville(rebuild)
« Reply #1405 on: December 19, 2010, 01:51:31 PM »
 
  Thanks bobqzzi

  Will be calling BLP

              JL222

Offline Blue

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Re: Getting ready for Bonneville(rebuild)
« Reply #1406 on: December 19, 2010, 05:49:46 PM »
Sorry about the damage.  Have you looked into oil squirters for the undersides of the pistons? They can make a tremendous difference in piston temperatures. For something with such a large piston and such harsh use, 2 or 3 per piston would be best.
Any data on oil squirters and flow rates vs. or in combination with ceramic TBC's on the piston crown?
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Offline bobqzzi

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Re: Getting ready for Bonneville(rebuild)
« Reply #1407 on: December 19, 2010, 06:16:49 PM »
Sorry about the damage.  Have you looked into oil squirters for the undersides of the pistons? They can make a tremendous difference in piston temperatures. For something with such a large piston and such harsh use, 2 or 3 per piston would be best.
Any data on oil squirters and flow rates vs. or in combination with ceramic TBC's on the piston crown?

I do not.  I recall seeing some VAG data on the efficacy of squirters, but have long since lost it.

In my opinion, in a Bonneville application a TBC barrier would be useless.  They only slow the transfer of heat and after 90 secs of WOT I don't think there would be much reduction. Further, I often wonder if the piston ends up running hotter because the TBC makes the piston cool slower when the fresh charge comes in.
 But, that's my opinion only, and I can quote no data.



Offline Dynoroom

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Re: Getting ready for Bonneville(rebuild)
« Reply #1408 on: December 19, 2010, 11:22:12 PM »
Personally I don't run oil squirters in my Bonneville engines although my current Dodge engine came with them so are being used at the moment. However I would use them under certain conditions. Mainly if you were pulling a high crankcase vaccum or had a piston that was a long way up the bore on a short stroke engine with a long rod turbocharged engine. A Buick V6 is an example and we still didn't run oil squirters @ 980 hp with 209 cubic inches for 500 miles. This engine had a very short stroke and a long 6.800" rod.
 Running a blown gas engine with the correct piston crown, ring placement, piston skirt cam grind, barrel shape, ring size, cooling system, fuel system, etc can/will dictate overall success IMO.
I also do not run any skirt, dome, or chamber coatings as my testing tells me that I'm trying to transfer the heat of combustion that's not used for work into the cooling system and exhaust. And I've not seen any power in endurance applications. YMMV.

Here is some information on how the measure different piston temperatures etc. on a running engine.

http://www.engineering.leeds.ac.uk/ietsi/ResearchEngine.shtml
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Offline Rex Schimmer

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Re: Getting ready for Bonneville(rebuild)
« Reply #1409 on: December 20, 2010, 12:06:34 AM »
Just a note about the time that John and Troy are at WOT. At the speeds they are running I doubt that they are at WOT much longer than 60 seconds, even to the 5 mile.

John, what does your data logger tell you?

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