Change in horse collar rule....but what are they looking for?

[Jonny Hotnuts]

Now that they have done away with the horse collar helmet support the book says:

 (pg. 22-23) 3.A.3

"A helmet support shall be used in vehicles."

Lateral movement: The structure shall provide restriction to lateral head movement of less than 2" per side by 08. See section 3.B.1.



But 3.B.1 is the roll cage requirements and doesn't say anything about any "structure" for lateral head movement.



I have seen helmet braces by Kirkey but they are fairly weak....I could make some that are way better than the ones they have......and do they need to be padded?

Thanks

-JH

[hotrod]

The way that is worded it looks to me like a proper racing seat with lateral head support pads would satisfy the rule.

The recent fatal accident on John Forces team (March 23rd death of teammate Eric Medlen ) resulted in some changes in how he is padding his funny cars.
The fatal injury was caused by extreme side to side shaking due to a tire coming apart at speed.

http://motorsports-soapbox.blogspot.com/2007/04/force-speaks-on-medlens-death-what.html

Larry

[Carl Johansson]

I had the Kirkey "earflap" setup -  pretty flimsy - and the inspectors were not thrilled with it.  So I took em out and added 2 new vertical bars to the cage -  1 on each side of the drivers helmet -  and padded em up .  limits horizontal head movement to about 1 - 1.5 inches each way -  does not affect lateral vision or exit speed.

Carl Johansson

Now that they have done away with the horse collar helmet support the book says:

 (pg. 22-23) 3.A.3

"A helmet support shall be used in vehicles."

Lateral movement: The structure shall provide restriction to lateral head movement of less than 2" per side by 08. See section 3.B.1.



But 3.B.1 is the roll cage requirements and doesn't say anything about any "structure" for lateral head movement.



I have seen helmet braces by Kirkey but they are fairly weak....I could make some that are way better than the ones they have......and do they need to be padded?

Thanks

-JH

[Jonny Hotnuts]

Carl I too am not happy about the kirkey earflaps. I have a buddy that races Mazda SCCA cars and I thought they were tits until he told me that they take the stock ones and weld new braces to the sides to give them a little strength. After seeing the stock ones I can see why they need to be beefed up.....he said I would be better off making my own.


------------------BUT-----------------------


I do not have the room to make loops out of the same bar as the cage.
I am already pushing the limits of being able to get in and more importantly, out.

I can make kirkey style flaps.....and have already started but I am using 1/2" solid bar (bent into a "U" with a bar that attaches to the middle....sort of like a pitch fork and capping it with .095 sheet on one side. They would extend to where the visor starts to retain vison.

I did not plan on having the lat support have padding......and the kirkey slip covers should not be considered padding ether.

So is tech going to say about my earflaps and no padding?

[interested bystander]

       

      My thoughts are that with SFI LEGAL rollbar padding and a HANS device Land Speed racers are pretty well protected (with all other mandated devices) based on current knowledge, although I think the safety industry may be trailing behind on CONCUSSION head protection, although WAY ahead of the NFL.

    This is a plug, but Dennis Taylor (He's on the net) is a So Cal safety equipment manufacturer and even though he's not YET an LSR, (not old enough!) you locals should be aware of his business. He's fair priced and more important. knowledgeable and will work with you!

[Sumner]

...........I did not plan on having the lat support have padding......and the kirkey slip covers should not be considered padding ether.

So is tech going to say about my earflaps and no padding?

I think I follow what you are doing, but not totally sure.  I feel any thing the head/helmet could come into contact with should be padded (SFI).  Hopefully JD or Dan will reply to your question.

c ya,

Sum

[Dean Los Angeles]

I did not plan on having the lat support have padding

A closed head injury means you received a hard blow to the head from striking an object.

Diffuse axonal injury, or DAI, usually occurs as the result of an acceleration or deceleration motion, not necessarily an impact. Axons are stretched and damaged when parts of the brain of differing density slide over one another.

Subdural hematoma occurs when there is tearing of the bridging vein between the cerebral cortex and a draining venous sinus. Complications include uncal herniation, focal neurologic deficits, and death.

A google search on Closed Head Injury brings up stuff like this. When your helmet contacts an unpadded rollbar it stops. The brain continues to rapidly accelerate and then rapidly decelerate. Padding between the rollbar and helmet gives additional deceleration.

John Force made the rollcage wider to accommodate more padding after Eric Medlen's accident.

Can you predict your next accident? Any guess on the angle or force of impact?

[pookie]

Man, I am suprised that LSR memory's are so short, Anybody remember JOHN BECKETT? I believe this change in the roll cage is a directly related to the final evaluation as to what killed John in his accident in 2005 at Bonneville. If my memory serves me correctly about 15 or 20 years ago Smokey Yunick wrote an article in Circle Track Magazine describing what Dean of LA posted about limiting head movement. It was the first effort by Smokey to get the "safer Barriers" to be used in guard rails.  He was trying to slow down the rapid deceleration of the brain at impact. After Johns death, about 2 or 3 months later I was at the car inspection and overheard a quite  confidential conversation between Mike Cook and another  person concerning  the changes to the roll cage and lateral head movement. It was quite hush hush. This is a great rule and any thing that can be done to enhance  or improve the restrainting of the head in a accident should be followed . Good reporting Dean of LA.

[Jonny Hotnuts]

How far do the bars need to extend from the back of the seat?

[836dstr]

I have often wondered about the relative hardness or compression of SFI Rollbar padding (obviously it compresses a lot more than steel tubing). If the object is to decelerate the helmet wouldn't it make more sense to have padding with a progressive compression, where the outer layer would compress easier to absorb more energy and get harder closer to the bar?

I am going to have to add 2" per side in my Roadster to meet the maximum lateral helmet movement. I would guess the less would be better. With an existing cage what type of substructure will be required?

ISP makes a nice product but I'm not sure how it would work in my application. I sit all the way back in my cage basically against the headrest.

Tom

[RichFox]

At the May El Mirage meet Wayn Phillips went through inspection with a Kirkey seat with the "ear flaps". The inspector liked them alot. So I ran right out and bought the same seat for my car. Now I am hearing they may not meet the requirements. I wish someone representing the SCTA would make a clear and positive statement as to what it is they want. As a minimum. PS the same inspector told Wayn that he didn't need window film on his tempered side windows. Wrong, I believe.

[dwarner]

Once again, the rulebook specifications are minimum requirements. Anything added safely is a plus. The ISP product has been discussed before and the merits of it's use have been brought up. I noticed that the rulebook does not specifically state that the 2" side clearance should include the padding. I would think that an astute builder would be able to figure out that the sides should be padded.

How far forward do the sides need to come? As far as needed to protect the driver's head.

DW

[dwarner]

I noticed the other post was entered before I could post mine.

The inspectors are volunteers, some have more years of service than others. If you EVER think that something you hear is wrong ask for an explanation from both the inspector and someone else. As humans each of us have ideas formed from life long experiences. As hard as people try to be objective, sometimes a subconscious thought will influence decisions.

As far as seeing an official SCTA presence on any forum I would think not. You will have to live with non-board members and others who can offer hundreds of years of accumulated experience.

DW

[RichFox]

Well I can offer 30 years of accumulated experience. I guess maybe I am used to manuals we got when working on the aircraft. I don't know why a rule can't be written that is easily understood when it comes to Lateral head movement. Maybe we could look into the NASCAR rule book. I never asked the board to post their desired minimums here on this forum. Just to be a little clearer when forming something like this.

[Sumner]

I would strongly recommend reading this page on my site:

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/bville-tburkland-1.html

Tom Burkland was kind enough to share his thoughts to help me in building a safe lakester, but they can apply to many applications.  I'm going with the 1/4 to 1/2 inch clearance around the helmet and the tight fit for the body.   There is some really good info there from someone who has researched this very extensively and has also run well over 400 mph.

The 2 inch rule is a good one, but if you can get it tighter than than, why not??  The cage is to protect you from the car collapsing into you.  You can (I will) make inner bars with padding that can be adjustable to the individual driver to snug them up to within the 1/4-1/2 inch clearance Tom talks about inside of the cage and hoops around your head.  These only have to be of sufficient strength to hold your head if it comes into contact with them, such as the required 1 inch by .125 strap than might be required to keep your head from exiting the cage.  The cage will protect you from the crush zone and these can limit head/neck movement.

How far do the bars need to extend from the back of the seat?

p. 24/25 "The front hoop of the  roll cage shall be at least three inches in front of the driver's helmet".  So if you are talking about the strap/bar to limit the 2" of lateral movement I would think it should go forward to the front hoop.

c ya,

Sum