Ford 9 strength

[doug odom]

If it sucks it in, where does it push it out??? Seriously, I have 1 or 2 laying around the shop I could dig out and take a picture or some other help if you need.    Doug Odom in big ditch

[maguromic]

What you have is a circulator style pump, not a two stage dry sump pump.  These are single unit systems used for circulating the oil in the transmission and rear end through oil coolers.  They are made by all the dry sump manufactures but are not intended for dry sump applications.

Two stage dry sump pumps are common on some drag motorcycle applications and  some dirt track and drag cars.

You can make your pump work, but you will have to calculate the amount of oil needed and restrict the oil in your return line as its a constant flow return.  As these are circulator style pumps they don’t draw big vacuum like a dry sump pump.

[rebelce]

As it was ebay, so no instructions and yes that's exactly what it looks like, even if it was listed as a dry sump pump, both in the listing and the manufacturer web site.  It looks like I might be able to bleed a little off the pressure side (as they are both the same)  So that more is pulled out than put in.   I hate doing it that was as it's needless waste of energy.  But a good pump in the hand is worth two in the parts book and I've been out of the box so long it could work.

[maguromic]

Some things you might want to consider is putting a scraper for your ring gear as the oil will want to rope on the ring gear. When the car is moving the ring gear will push the oil to the shotgun side so think about your scavenging layout.  Depending where you put your oil back you may not have adequate oil for the pinion bearing and you may have to plumb an oil line to it.

If you want that little bit extra, think about your hoses and fittings. All fittings and hoses aren’t the same.  I only use Aeroquip because they are MIL spec.  Others like XRP, Earls are good companies but they only use MIL spec as a guideline.  With some of their products (on where they sourced it at the time) you can get flow disturbances or boundary layer entrapment causing you to loose what you have gained.

[Evil Tweety]

John,

I tested both at 2.47, from the quick change to the Ford 9” we gained about 6 HP.  It was interesting when we went to the 12 bolt drop in and it jumped to 10 HP.  My car is HP limited and runs on gas, so the only way is to gain the lost HP.  Remember 75% of the horsepower loss occurs in the drive train.

So I'm clear here - the Ford 9" gave you 6 more HP than the quick change?  And the 12 bolt, was that 10 HP more than the Ford (total of 16 then) or 10 HP more than the quick change?
Thanks!

[maguromic]

With the Ford we gained 6HP over the quick change, when we put the 12 bolt drop in to the Ford 9” there was another gain of 4HP for a total of 10HP. This didn’t make horsepower.  We gained HP that we lost by improving the efficiency.  I didn’t check a regular Chevy 12 bolt rear end against these, but I suspect the results would be close.  I wanted the Ford 9" so I can use the NASCAR style floater hubs and the ease of changing the gears vs the Chevy 12 bolt.

[russ jensen]

[quote author=maguromic link=topic=2490.msg30798#msg30798 date=1182817310 I wanted the Ford 9" so I can use the NASCAR style floater hubs and the ease of changing the gears vs the Chevy 12 bolt.
[/quote]For 12 bolt on my  Essex I used stainless tubes w/ 9" style brngs to eliminate C clips & use axles w/ bad roller brng area- would be just as easy to install grand nat tubes& use dble spline axles-giving option of toe in or out and + or - camber-{probably not needed for corning on salt} - gear changes will still be a little slow..russ

[jimmy six]

rebelce, not that I'm confused but how are you going to run your pump? A belt off the drive shaft? Added drag (pump, belt, pulleys)

Nothing is going to happen until you start making your pass.  Are you aiming a nozzle the intersection of the gears; not much pressure until you get quite a few rpm. There is alot of load on the gears at the beginning and the oil is sitting in the "sump" of the differential when it's needed.

IMO As you get up to speed the oils is thrown everywhere out the axles,etc and the ring gear makes a path in the oil so the not as much drag is there as you think..

I would pick a better designed rear with less built in drag and run synthetic oil. The more stuff you add the more can go wrong.. Murphy is built into all our races vehicles and loves to interrupt rides...Good luck

PS...The new 2 stage Barnes pump I bought off E-Bay was a true 2 stage. One suction and one pressure. 

 

[rebelce]

As much as I love over engineering and needless complexity (not to mention the thought of horsepower lost)  The KISS principle is very much alive over here and I need to start a little simpler in the beginning.  Just getting there with a complete car is going to be hard enough without doing an absolute max effort.            One thing this post has given me, was an appreciation of the different philosophies involved in racing.   For what it's worth, I was planning to drive the pump via electric pump.  I do think there is much validity in this train of though and congratulations on finding pump that is correct for dry sumping a rear end.

[Richard Thomason]

One caveat about shock load on the salt not being comparable to asphalt, if you use a clutchless transmission with an air shifter, you will be putting tremendous shock load on all your drive train parts. They shift within a 1/3 of a crankshaft revolution. Lots of inertia and momentum change there that translates into a larger than expected shock load.

[Howard]

  Amen Richard, that's why some of us old farts never wanted to do that. I always used the tried and true clutch. Then I know who to blame when something breaks. KISS philosophy.
Howard

[Bob Drury]

Thats what your right foot is for Richard..........

[1212FBGS]

just as rex said spray the oil after the gear mesh... logic will tell you to lube it before contact but you will detonate the oil under compression. lighter weight oil has a higher btu thermal reduction and can still have the same cushion to lubricate.
kent

[Rex Schimmer]

Rebecle,
When you say you have a double pump but they are both scavenger sections that is not really correct.  You have a double pump and there is not a relief valve on one section as you would get on an engine pump. Well you really don't need a relief valve, one section should scavage your diff housing and pump the oil into a small external reservoir and if you really want the best possible oil going into your diff you should also put a filter on this line, the other section should pump out of your external reservoir, DO NOT PUT A FILTER ON THE PUMP INLET!!!!,be connected to the spray bars that you are going to install to spray the lube oil into the places that want lubricated in the diff. You really don't need, or want, a relief valve as the pressure in this system is going to be set by the flow rate of your pump and the size of the various lines and spray tubes that you put into the diff. On an engine system you need the relief valve to set the maximum oil pressure that the engine will see and the relief valve dumps the rest of the oil back into its own inlet port, you don't want this for your diff, you want all of the oil that the pump puts out to be put back into the diff. I would set up the spray bars with what ever you are going to do for nozzles and put a pressure gage on the pump outlet port and run the pump, I would suggest that you set your spray nozzle sizes to set the pressure at around 50 to 75 psi. Now if the pump you have has both pump sections the same size you there will be probaby be some collection of oil in the diff case as it take a while for the oil to run back to your scavaging inlet, so I would highly recommend that you put an actual sump into the diff housing at its low point to collect the oil for the scavaging section. If your pump happens to have a large section and a smaller section then make the large section the scavenger..

Rex

[bobh]

When you used the strange 12 bolt drop out, what did you use for a spool? Strange said that they only have a spool for a 4 series gear set.