Author Topic: Fuel Injection Help....  (Read 16616 times)

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Offline Sumner

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Fuel Injection Help....
« on: May 20, 2007, 09:16:12 PM »
We could use some help/advice with the mechanical (Enderle) fuel injection we are using on Hooley's Stude with an 8-71 blower on gas.  We understand how it works and can make it idle and can change pills etc., but we really don't know when making a pill change how far to go.  So far it has just been guesses depending if we are trying to go richer or leaner. 

I would think that if I know the pill I was using on a run and knew what the Barometric Pressure, temperature, and humidity were and what the air/fuel ratio was at a certain rpm I should then be able to figure what pill I need if any of these change or I want to go to a different air/fuel ratio.

If we would get a flow rate for the nozzles at a certain rpm (let's say 7000) then I would know the weight of the fuel at that rpm and knowing the air/fuel ratio at that rpm I would know the weight of the air.  Then if I wanted a different air/fuel ratio I could now figure backwards and change the pill so that the nozzles would flow the new fuel rate at 7000 rpm to give me my new air/fuel ratio.

Using a similar approach I could compensate for pressure, temperature and/or humidity changes between runs.

Is this right? 

Is the key flowing our pump, barrel valve, nozzles with a given pill size and pump rpm on a flow bench??  Seems once I know the flow at the nozzles everything else can be figured out, but I might be way off on this  :cry:.

Where can I find what changes in flow different pills give??  Do I have to flow all of them on a flow bench??  Seems I read somewhere once I know one I can figure the others by the diameter of the orifice in them??

What is a good book on this??

This one??  Fuel Injection Basics 3rd Edition by Jim Harvey

Another one??

Anyone brave enough to PM me their phone number that really has a handle on this stuff??

Thanks and c ya,

Sum


Offline Bob Drury

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Re: Fuel Injection Help....
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2007, 09:28:42 PM »
Sum, I think they are all of help, but you might give Gene Adams a call first.  He is now located in Redding, California and I have his phone number some place, which means its lost.  Maybe someone on the site has it.  Obviously, you must be starting from a pretty good place as evidenced by your speeds last year.  On my Olds, we normally wouldn't go more than .005 at a time, cause it can get real expensive...I know.  A good test is to just run it to the three for a plug read.  Bob
Bob Drury

Offline Sumner

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Re: Fuel Injection Help....
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2007, 11:43:38 PM »
Sum, I think they are all of help, but you might give Gene Adams a call first.  He is now located in Redding, California and I have his phone number some place, which means its lost.  Maybe someone on the site has it.  Obviously, you must be starting from a pretty good place as evidenced by your speeds last year.  On my Olds, we normally wouldn't go more than .005 at a time, cause it can get real expensive...I know.  A good test is to just run it to the three for a plug read.  Bob

Thanks Bob if you un-lose the number get it to me.  I did find a Jean Adams in Redding doing a people search.  I'll be there the first part of June for a day or so with Hitz on my way from Bend down to El Mirage.  Maybe Hitz knows him.  He plans on taking me around to see some of the cars now being built for b'ville there.

The "pretty good place" we are starting from is real rich.  We were 9.36 to 1 on the qualifying run and after screwing up the two runs before that by getting plug wires crossed and then running out of gas in front of Glen  :cry:, we took the conservative approach and didn't touch the car in impound.  Next morning on the record run we were still 9.45 to 1 pig rich.  So we probably could run faster just the way it is if we got the air/fuel closer to 12 to 1.

In August Hooley wants to take one big step from the 8 lbs of boost we were running last year to 16 lbs to start with this year and I need to get a better handle on the fuel system or we might just make one run   :oops:.

c ya,

Sum

Offline Dynoroom

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Re: Fuel Injection Help....
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2007, 12:27:40 AM »
Sum, most of what you said is true & you will be able to tune from your baseline when you get good repeatable data. I run my blown motors on the rich side around 11.5:1, if Hooley wants to run more boost don't change the jetting, split the boost to around 12 psi and your A/F will be closer. When you make jet changes calculate the area of the jet and you can work out the lbs./hr. change that will work with your flowed system.
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Offline hotrod

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Re: Fuel Injection Help....
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2007, 02:31:29 AM »
Not sure if it applies to the mechanical injection systems but on the EFI systems if you know your fuel pressure at the injector, and jet area you can work out changes with simple math.

(actually you need to work with the pressure drop across the injector nozzles so it is fuel rail pressure gauge - manifold pressure gauge to find the effective pressure across the nozzle.)

If you increase boost and the fuel supply pressure stays the same, it will lean you out.

Flow changes directly proportional to the jet area just like a carburetor and as the square root of the change in fuel pressure across the orifice.

If you go from 8 psig manifold pressure to 12 psig manifold pressure your fuel flow with identical nozzles and fuel supply pressure should change by the  square root of  (fuel line pressure - 8/ fuel  line pressure -12). This assumes there  is no boost referenced fuel pressure regulator. If your line pressure goes up in lock step with your boost then you can ignore the manifold pressure for this calc.

A typical fuel  line pressure in EFI is 43 psi, so the effective fuel pressure across the nozzle at 8 psi boost would be 35 psi , and at 12 psi 31 psi. your flow should vary as the square root of 31/35 = 0.94 or it would lean you out by 6%. (common EFI systems on production cars use boost referenced  fuel pressure regulators so at 20 psi boost the actual line pressure would be 63 psi and the pressure drop across the injector would in theory stay at 43 psi.)




How stable is the fuel pressure on those systems?

Does it change throughout the engines rev range or do you have a regulator to hold a fixed base supply pressure.

(never really had any exposure to them so the EFI method may not be at all appropriate)

From looking at schematics of the mechanical injector systems it looks like it is setup as a positive displacement  pump feeding in effect 2 orfices, the nozzle to the intake manifold which will be influenced by the manifold pressure, and the bypass pill that will bypass all the additional fuel. As I see it, fuel supply pressure should rise to what ever pressure is necessary to move the fuel displaced by the pump through both nozzles (injector and bypass).

Increased boost should cut flow on the manifold injector and that should cause a matching increase in line pressure until the bypass pill can flow the equivalent amount of fuel as  the drop in flow through the injector.

It looks like you could look at it as a parallel resistor problem in electronics. (Current in must equal current out --- pump flow must equal injector flow plus bypass flow). Any change in one orifice (injector nozzle or bypass pill) would create an equal and opposite change in flow at the other.

Over very small changes in mixture, increased flow  in the bypass would create an equal and opposite change in flow at the injector (over small size changes the system pressure should stay very nearly the same.)


So following that logic, if you wanted to go from a 9.45:1 AFR to a 12:1 AFR you would want to flow 78% of your original flow through the injector, that would need an increased flow on the bypass pill to 128% of its previous flow,(assuming fuel pressure changes were very small). Then you would have to compensate for changes in boost pressure. That would imply an increase in bypass pill orifice area of 28% would be about right if you stayed at 8 psi boost.

Being Conservative, take  only about 1/2 or 1/3 the expected change, and see what your mixture does. --- rinse and repeat as necessary.

(this is just a mental learning exercise for me, so looking for the guys with hands on experience to tell me what I forgot or got stupid wrong ;)  )

Is this a reasonable approach?

Larry

« Last Edit: May 21, 2007, 03:48:13 AM by hotrod »

Offline desotoman

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Re: Fuel Injection Help....
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2007, 01:02:37 PM »
Sum,
   Here is the information for Gene Adams.
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Offline Rex Schimmer

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Re: Fuel Injection Help....
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2007, 07:40:18 PM »
Larry's analogy to EFI is not to bad and his comments regarding the flow vs. pressure are correct. All of the mechanical fuel injections systems that we normallly see, Hilborn, Enderle, Kinsler etc really only have a few spots in their fuel flow curves which may actually fit the engines requirements  and the one that is the most important is of course WFO throttle. You have so many variables in a mechanical system, the fuel pump is "fixed displacement" i.e. the faster you turn it the more it pumps in a direct relationship to the speed change. NOT!!!! As the pump spins faster the pressure goes up and the internal leakage increases so the output is not exactly proportional to speed and then the damn thing wears out and you're really in the smelly stuff! The return jet, the "pill", can vary from manufacture to manufacture. Kinsler likes to sell return orifices that have a radiused inlet, well this flows much different than an orifice that has sharp edges and even these may be different depending on how they were made! So just looking at the orifice size and doing some flow vs. differential pressure calculations is probably a waste of time, you really need to check the fuel flow through the jet at some pressure and then you can figure the rest of the flows for different pressures using the proportional to the square root of the pressure differential formula. Same goes for the injector nozzles, on Huey's car I think that all of the injector nozzles are in the injector hat so blower pressure really does not affect these, anything down stream of the blower you need to look at the differential pressure to figure the flow. What generally happens you find out all of this by feeding your engine pistons, and if you take good notes you eventually can get something that is close.will make it past the 5 mile post

The single purpose of the return jet is to control the fuel pressure to the injector nozzles, at WFO of courses. More fuel returned to the tank the lower the pressure the less fuel through the nozzles and of course it is all related by the square root of the pressure differential. Now if I was going to do one of these things and didn't want to go to EFI (why would you do that???) I would run a really big pump, so big that even at idle it would be pumping 5-10 times the engines needs then I would control the fuel pressure with a proportional pressure relief valve and then I would map the engine fuel requirements,under load, a various engine speeds and throttle settings and control the proportional relief valve to provide the required pressure depending on the throttle position and the engine speed. Kind of sounds like EFI constant flow doesn't it?

Even the best mechanical injection systems is not close to EFI it is just that you can really pour some fuel though a mechanical system and make big HP but make sure that you have a good supply of pistons, and make small changes and when you think you are close stop f--king around!

Rex
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Offline Sumner

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Re: Fuel Injection Help....
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2007, 11:09:56 AM »
Hey guys thanks for the input here and thanks to those of you that helped us via PM's, e-mails, and over the phone.  I think we have a plan and if it works at all I'll try and document it on my site later and maybe it will help someone else in the future.

BTW Jon if you read this I initially posted this in the "Technical Discussion" forum section as the heading for this one is "EFI Questions" and I didn't want to get my hand slapped for mixing mechanical fuel injection with the electronic stuff  :wink:.  Maybe the heading could be just "Fuel Injection" or "Fuel Management", which could then also include carbs.  Just a thought.

Anyway with out this forum I would still be floundering around, thanks.  Now I think I might actually be on the way to some sort of solution to the problem.

c ya,

Sum

Offline Stainless1

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Re: Fuel Injection Help....
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2007, 11:31:30 PM »
Summer, if you gain 60-70 pounds, we will rename you Flounder...  :evil:  :wink:
(animal house reference for the kids)  :-D
Stainless
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Offline Sumner

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Re: Fuel Injection Help....
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2007, 11:38:37 PM »
Summer, if you gain 60-70 pounds, ..............

That will probably happen about the same time the lakester is finished and then I'll never be able to drive it  :cry:.  I've been instructed to plan for future growth, that is the driver not the engine  8-)

Actually this car is a real good incentive for me to watch my weight and if I can keep it on it's wheels might actually contribute to lengthening my life span  :roll:.  See racing can be good for your health  :-D.

Of course in your case I can see the car did nothing to limit your height, they just made the car longer  :lol:,

Sum
« Last Edit: May 23, 2007, 11:40:20 PM by Sumner »

Offline Dean Los Angeles

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Re: Fuel Injection Help....
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2007, 12:54:54 PM »
Hey Sum, check out info here:
http://www.fuelinjectionenterprises.com/
Mechanical Injection - Sample Reports has some interesting info.
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Offline ddahlgren

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Re: Fuel Injection Help....
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2007, 04:29:18 AM »
While it has been a while since doing mechanical injection here is the way i did it on the dyno to baseline the system. First plug the secondary bypass, the one with a spring loaded  check valve and another pill. Install a pressure gauge on the pump output that you can either see or data log along with rpm. Run the engine adjusting the main bypass for best peak torque this will be too rich at peak HP. Also record the local weather readings as you work. Local meaning at the engine not the parking lot as the temps can be wildly different. With the main set correctly go back and see what rpm you have peak torque and  what pump pressure. Set the secondary bypass spring pressure with a leakdown tester pressure/ regulator to just barely hiss at the pump pressure for peak torque. Install a very small  pill in the secondary bypass and use the dymo sheet to get a good idea how big it might be by how fast the torque is falling off. Make this pill larger until you hit peak HP. This sounds like a long drawn out thing but actually happens pretty quick. When done at the track change the area of the main bypass to correct for weather. A 10% change in density altitude needs a 10% change in area. Another good rule of thumb is if you double the manifold pressure you need to double the fuel by cutting the main bypass area in half not the diameter. As a side note a belt drive pump and a chart to go with the pump rpm vs. pressure is a very valuable tool as it allows you to change the drive ratio  to make big changes and still stay within some reasonable selection of nozzle and jet sizes. Also I use a leakdown tester once the barrel valve is set for the best compromise of idle quality and response. That way you can get back to that point quickly if the system is taken apart for service.
Dave

Offline Sumner

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Re: Fuel Injection Help....
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2007, 12:36:56 PM »
Thanks Dean I've been on their site.

Dave thanks for that insight.  I don't know when or if we will be on a dyno again with the motor, but I can apply a lot of that to running on the salt and making changes there.  I saved and printed it out.

c ya,

Sum

Offline wolcottjl

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Re: Fuel Injection Help....
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2007, 09:58:40 PM »
While it has been a while since doing mechanical injection here is the way i did it on the dyno to baseline the system. First plug the secondary bypass, the one with a spring loaded  check valve and another pill. Install a pressure gauge on the pump output that you can either see or data log along with rpm. Run the engine adjusting the main bypass for best peak torque this will be too rich at peak HP. Also record the local weather readings as you work. Local meaning at the engine not the parking lot as the temps can be wildly different. With the main set correctly go back and see what rpm you have peak torque and  what pump pressure. Set the secondary bypass spring pressure with a leakdown tester pressure/ regulator to just barely hiss at the pump pressure for peak torque. Install a very small  pill in the secondary bypass and use the dymo sheet to get a good idea how big it might be by how fast the torque is falling off. Make this pill larger until you hit peak HP. This sounds like a long drawn out thing but actually happens pretty quick. When done at the track change the area of the main bypass to correct for weather. A 10% change in density altitude needs a 10% change in area. Another good rule of thumb is if you double the manifold pressure you need to double the fuel by cutting the main bypass area in half not the diameter. As a side note a belt drive pump and a chart to go with the pump rpm vs. pressure is a very valuable tool as it allows you to change the drive ratio  to make big changes and still stay within some reasonable selection of nozzle and jet sizes. Also I use a leakdown tester once the barrel valve is set for the best compromise of idle quality and response. That way you can get back to that point quickly if the system is taken apart for service.
Dave

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Offline peglegcraig

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Re: Fuel Injection Help....
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2007, 05:09:00 PM »
You sure get a feel for the depth of the smarts pool when you read the posts on "our " board  :wink: A big thanks to all you lifeguards out there :-D
 Hey Sum, It was great to meet you at El Mirage last weekend, hope to see you out there again!
 I'll look for you at BUB in Sept.
 Craig
« Last Edit: June 14, 2007, 11:28:03 AM by peglegcraig »