Author Topic: will larger throttle bodies help high altitude performance?  (Read 8414 times)

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Offline Jonny Hotnuts

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It seems logical to me to think that larger throttle bodies will improve high altitude HP on normally aspirated motors. I understand that larger TBs will actually slow the air flow (loose some low end torque)  but allow more volume (more top end HP) but I was wondering is it worth it simply based on the higher altitude factor......to me it seems like a good idea to allow more volume because of the lower air density.

Here is the TBs I am considering.

http://builder2.bellsouth-hosting.net/cgi-bin/ePages.filereader?463c0559001000530000c6ace3960572+EN/products/9668&2D30792


Trying to shorten the HP loss @ 2500'.

BTW:

Dont look at this pic.

jonny_hotnuts@hotmail.com

"Sometimes it is impossible to deal with her, but most of the time she is very sweet, and if you caress her properly she will sing beautifully."
*Andres Segovia
(when Im not working on the car, I am ususally playing classical guitar)

Offline ddahlgren

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Re: will larger throttle bodies help high altitude performance?
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2007, 04:41:05 PM »
nope.. it is an air density problem not a cfm thing..
Dave

Super Kaz

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Re: will larger throttle bodies help high altitude performance?
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2007, 10:52:18 PM »
nope.. it is an air density problem not a cfm thing..
Dave
yep smaller is usaully better on N/A MOTOR'S UNLESS it's 800+cube Moutain Motor.
Now if You Cooled the Air 1st it might help :??????
Forced induction would help also I hear:wink:.

landracing

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Re: will larger throttle bodies help high altitude performance?
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2007, 11:36:47 PM »
Quote
yep smaller is usaully better on N/A MOTOR'S UNLESS it's 800+cube Moutain Motor.

kaz,

Can you better explain your theory???

Thinking about putting the 1" throttle body on that 1350cc motor or do you think i should goto 1/2"? Because smaller is better correct.

Jon
« Last Edit: May 09, 2007, 11:39:57 PM by landracing »

landracing

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Re: will larger throttle bodies help high altitude performance?
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2007, 02:15:30 AM »
In other words, Dave suggest to look at Density as I can show why. You will have to check my calculations, and hopefully Dave can elaborate more. But I can show Mass Air Flow change in Altitude.

Assuming 350 Chevy at 8K RPM and 100% VE

(2.7*Pressure/(Rankine+Temp)

At Sea Level air density is .0763  lbs/cubic ft (2.7*14.7/(460+60))
At Bonneville (6000ft for instance, just using a number) air density is .05678 lbs/cubic ft
(2.7*11.78/(460+100))


Hopefully Dave might tell us how that effects throttle body sizing?

Jon



Offline Jonny Hotnuts

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Re: will larger throttle bodies help high altitude performance?
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2007, 12:27:44 PM »
The 2 mm larger TBs I am considering say they are getting 5 hp more on a stock motor (and up to 15+ on a big bore) but I would really like to understand why "smaller is better" before I spend the scratch.

One of the reasons I had the question of larger TBs helping high altitude performance is this tech article from Banks:

http://www.bankspower.com/Tech_SecrettoMakingPower.cfm


"By its very design, this means our 300-cubic-inch engine takes in 300 cubic inches of air every two revolutions of the crankshaft. Now here’s the interesting part. It does this whether the throttle is open or closed. But wait, you say. The engine takes in more air when the throttle is open. And while it is true that more air mass flows into the engine when the throttle opens, the engine’s size, or displacement, never changes, so the only actual difference is the density of the air that fills that displacement.

When the throttle is closed, very little air mass flows into the engine, so that small amount has to expand to fill our 300 cubic inches. Thus, the air will be of very low density. As the throttle opens, more air mass can flow in to fill the engine, and the density will increase. This is often called the “charge density”.

Let’s think of charge density as the amount of oxygen available to support the combustion of the fuel. The more oxygen (air) that flows into the engine, the more fuel that can be burned, and the more power the engine can make. To say it another way, assuming you mix the correct amount of fuel with the air, how much power an engine can make is dependent on airflow. For normal cruising operation, a gasoline engine operates at around a 14.7:l air-to-fuel ratio, so it would need roughly 14.7 pounds of air to mix with every pound of fuel. To make maximum power that ratio would fall to approximately 12.5:l....."



By this it would seem to me that larger TBs would allow MORE flow of what is low density air into the motor thus allowing more O2 into the combustion chamber just as supercharging adds HP because it forces air into the motor (I am not refering to the other factors in the supercharger chain, such as water injection or intercooling, just forcing more air into the motor).....why is there a diffrence if the motor takes in more air because of any other method.....including larger TBs.


Thanks

JH
jonny_hotnuts@hotmail.com

"Sometimes it is impossible to deal with her, but most of the time she is very sweet, and if you caress her properly she will sing beautifully."
*Andres Segovia
(when Im not working on the car, I am ususally playing classical guitar)

Super Kaz

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Re: will larger throttle bodies help high altitude performance?
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2007, 12:34:06 PM »
Quote
yep smaller is usaully better on N/A MOTOR'S UNLESS it's 800+cube Moutain Motor.

kaz,

Can you better explain your theory???

Thinking about putting the 1" throttle body on that 1350cc motor or do you think i should goto 1/2"? Because smaller is better correct.

Jon


Jon,
If you have a hair dryer on it go as big as you'd like as you are forcing it down it's throat,and thats a Big Help.
If it's a Natarually Aspirated Motor,unless it's Super Efficient or Much Larger then Stock .
The smaller hole keeps up the flow without being restrictive,and on everything I have raced  make more Power or goes Faster.
You have a Data logger on your Bike.
Check the pressure on BOTH sides  of T/B ,and see which one is better "Big or Small" :evil:
You can back it up on the dyno,but they aren't always REAL WORLD :?.
Depending on what track your racen at "B-Ville Long Course vs Maxton Mile'' you might make More Power Under the Curve with the smaller one so you will accelerate quicker over the Shorter Course.
Unlike Bonneville where we have a few miles to get her up to speed  :wink:!
I'd Like to see you do a write up on it as see 1st hand if It's gonna be a waste of Time and Money?
Remember you now need more Fuel for the More Air.
So you will have to do a whole new Tune up ,AND START FROM SCRATCH:-o
Let me know what you find as I just added 200cc Bigger to my Motor Too 8-)
Kaz.........

P.S

If you can some how cool the incoming air it will be densor also.
Not sure about Cool Cans being Legal on the fuel side either,but they help too. :-P
« Last Edit: May 10, 2007, 12:46:14 PM by Super Kaz »

Offline Sumner

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Re: will larger throttle bodies help high altitude performance?
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2007, 01:25:14 PM »
.................."By its very design, this means our 300-cubic-inch engine takes in 300 cubic inches of air every two revolutions of the crankshaft. Now here’s the interesting part. It does this whether the throttle is open or closed........
When the throttle is closed, very little air mass flows into the engine, so that small amount has to expand to fill our 300 cubic inches. Thus, the air will be of very low density. As the throttle opens, more air mass can flow in to fill the engine, and the density will increase. This is often called the “charge density”...........

I feel this statement might be a little mis-leading.   It says it "takes in 300 cu. in." every two revolutions regardless of if the throttle is open or closed.  If the throttle is closed it can't take in 300 cu. in. when the pistons goes down.  It is stuck with what ever atmospheric pressure does push past the throttle and with what was there, so there is no filling or power produced.

By this it would seem to me that larger TBs would allow MORE flow of what is low density air into the motor thus allowing more O2 into the combustion chamber just as

If the throttle is wide open then the restrictions to filling the cylinder are the flow characteristics of the intake track (manifold, and cylinder head), the valve sizes and the flow past the valves and the duration the valves are open and their lift and the relationship of the exhaust closing to the opening of the intake valve which then brings the scavenging of the exhaust into play.  The preceding is going to depend on the cam you picked. In other words how efficient of an air pump is the motor at any given rpm or rpm range.

Now if all of those things are flowing at their max you now bring the size of the throttle valves and the flow characteristics of the throttle body into the equation.  If it is now the restriction to air flow you need to make it larger.  Also all of this has to be matched together for the rpm you are trying to make hp at.

I'll bet the reason the larger throttle bodies on the stock motor can be made larger is because the manufacturer might have kept them a little on the small size to give up WOT top rpm power for better intake track velocities down low in the rpm band to make the bike more drivable.  Put the larger ones on and they might make more top end hp, but the bike might not seem so strong in every day driving.

So if the motor is being starved for air by the throttle body do something about that regardless of the altitude you are running.  I feel (might not be correct) that if you have throttle bodies sized for max hp at sea level on a na engine if anything they could probably be smaller at elevation and larger wouldn't do anything.

Also on a fuel injected engine the throttle bodies can be sized larger than you would size a carb cfm wise as you are controlling the fuel with the nozzles, where as if you put a too large carb on and the air flow through the carb is not high enough and the velocity is not good the carb just isn't going to work since it draws fuel with the venturi effect.

Hope someone clears up anything here that they don't agree with.

c ya,

Sum

Offline JackD

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Re: will larger throttle bodies help high altitude performance?
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2007, 02:01:49 PM »
If the TB matches the port size, you have a restriction right there with the butterfly and shaft.
The correct amount oversize to match the flow of the port might be indicated.
The action of the FI butterfly does not have to be linear.
Unequal length arms and some geometry will slow the opening at part throttle to preserve the part open drive ability and more quickly as it nears WOT for high speed performance.
Programmable electronic FI has that ability built in for the "Tuning Challenged".
This ain't Smogville. :wink:
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Offline RichFox

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Re: will larger throttle bodies help high altitude performance?
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2007, 05:47:44 PM »
To put it simply, If your throttle body is to small, a larger one will be faster.            Bring back the Girls @ Bonneville

Offline ddahlgren

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Re: will larger throttle bodies help high altitude performance?
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2007, 07:26:04 PM »
An engine is a cfm related device when talking about airflow. Making HP is both cfm and air density problem. Changing the pressure or temperature can help fix the problem of local air density. Throttle body sizing is all about air speeds and a change that makes more power at sea level will change the power at a different air density as far as area goes. Length is something different because the air speeds are not relative to ft/sec absolutely but local mach numbers so a change in density will require a change in the length of the induction system. As far as EFI vs. a carb or mechanical injection JD you have got to be kidding EFI is not just for smog.. The only people that don't use it fall into a few categories. They don't understand it and not willing to learn, they can not afford it, they need to flow some amount of fuel not supported by the currently available injectors or rules don't allow it. As far as i am aware there is no racing vehicle that does not run EFI that it is both legal rules wise and practical fuel flow wise and the team has both the funding and intelligence to use it. You can play with linkage ratios until you are very gray and never match the driveability or performance of an EFI system done correctly with quality components no matter how much you might try to kid yourself...
Dave

Offline JackD

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Re: will larger throttle bodies help high altitude performance?
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2007, 09:42:29 PM »
Well I never said that did I ?
The reference to air flow treatment with TB opening geometry is exclusive of the type of fuel injection.
The reference to "SMOGVILLE" was meant to illustrate maximum power and not emissions. :wink:
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Offline fastesthonda_jim

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Re: will larger throttle bodies help high altitude performance?
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2007, 10:16:39 PM »
As I (hopefully) learn more about this airflow stuff I find that it seems that it's not the throttle body size that is the issue.  It's the number of turns, no matter how slight, that the air must navigate before it gets into the cylinder.

A few years back I had a 383 Chevy on the dyno.  An 850 CFM carb was about all it could handle.  More CFM capability didn't make any more ponies.  And it's butterflies were what, about 1 3/4 inch diameter.  Now I run a zuki motor and each butterfly is 1 7/8 inches in diameter and feeds only 15 cubic inches (1/4 of a 4 cylinder 1000cc bike engine).  Except in the zuki you can look into the intake and see the valves.  The Chevy made the air twist and turn a bunch before it got to the cylinder.

So it would seem that anything you can do to straighten the flow would pay you back great dividends.  That and spinning everything to 12 grand before you shift.

One man's thots.

Jim
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Offline JackD

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Re: will larger throttle bodies help high altitude performance?
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2007, 11:28:58 PM »
The window of time is as important as the size and shape of the window.
People spend many hours shaping and testing the few inches of exhaust port for example and then dump it into the sewer pipe maze of the exhaust system. :wink:
"I would rather lose going fast enough to win than win going slow enough to lose."
"That horrible smell is dirty feet being held to the fire"