What makes a majority ??

[wolbrink471]

Hello All!

Just followed the link to the AMA BUB rules and ran head long into the following...

12.M. MODIFIED: GASOLINE ?AG?
Unlimited design. Superchargers and Turbochargers not allowed.
Construction must include a majority of motorcycle engine parts.
Fuel injection is allowed.
GASOLINE ONLY. See section 2.F.
12.N. MODIFIED: FUEL ?AF?
Unlimited design. Superchargers and Turbochargers not allowed.
Construction must include a majority of motorcycle engine parts.
Fuel injection is allowed.

Anybody have an easy answer or rule of thumb regarding what makes a majority?
Are we counting major components or all the individual pieces that make up the components?

I have reviewed the production engine rule and it lists five major components
1 cylinders 2 cases 3 heads 4 carb or injectors and 5 kick or electric start

what about cams and transmission and ignitions and ?

It would seem that counting the major components makes more sense, so has the list to chooses from? Hopefully there are an odd number of items on 'the list' or I am going to have a whole new issue!

anybody?  anybody? 

MArk

[JackD]

The interpretation used by the BUB/AMA promoter for his hand made motor and parts assembly that was never offered in any other motorcycle was that his motor is only found in a motorcycle so it must be one.
FIM has never had such an origin restriction.
Prior to that the AMA definition was based on if the crankshaft from a real production motorcycle motor could be fitted than the rest of the seemingly high performance parts provided by the entrant were allowed.
An example would be cases, barrels, and cylinder head.
Out of sight parts were never specified except for the method of operation.
Keeping the rules together and going the same direction often falls victim to individual wants.

[aswracing]

I've always wondered if a Chevy motor is eligible in AMA or SCTA.

You can buy brand new motorcycles that use it. Boss Hoss and others are available with either big blocks or small blocks.

[wolbrink471]

Thanks JackD!

[JackD]

I've always wondered if a Chevy motor is eligible in AMA or SCTA.

You can buy brand new motorcycles that use it. Boss Hoss and others are available with either big blocks or small blocks.

And they meet the PRODUCTION requirement for numbers produced and on sale to the general public as does the frightening S+S cases.
Another problem case of a ruling that is not thought through is the 3k cc limit until you get to Class A with SCTA.
I think I see a pattern.
 

[Dean Los Angeles]

The interpretation used by the BUB/AMA promoter for his hand made motor and parts assembly that was never offered in any other motorcycle was that his motor is only found in a motorcycle so it must be one.

This would be in reference to Dennis Manning, owner of BUB Enterprises (BUB=Big Ugly Bastard) and promoter of the BUB Motorcycle Speed Trials. The following record was set:

S-BF 350.884 Carr, C Fleetwood PA BUB 2006

The above and below is from the 2007 AMA RACING SUPPLEMENTAL REGULATIONS

12.P. SUPERCHARGED: FUEL ?BF?
Mechanically driven supercharger and/ or exhaust driven
turbocharger mandatory. Unlimited design. Construction must
include a majority of motorcycle engine parts. Fuel injection is
allowed.
NO FUEL RESTRICTIONS. See section 2.E.

This is from the BUB web site

Christened 'Seven' (it being the seventh streamliner Manning has designed in 40 odd years of holding and chasing the absolute Land Speed Record), the fastest motorcycle in the world features a purpose designed and engineered V-Four cylinder turbo charged 16 valve liquid cooled double overhead cam motor that delivers nearly three liters (158 inches) and close to 500 brake horse power to the technically demanding and notoriously difficult Bonneville surface via a custom designed and made monocoque carbon fiber and Kevlar construction chassis that provides the strength needed by the world's most demanding racing test.

From Motorcycle.com

Bub Enterprises' Denis Manning has been busy battling deadlines and watching schedules slip as his putative land speed record streamliner busted nothing but deadlines. Manning, a contender at Bonneville for more than a quarter century, wanted to have a crack at the land speed record himself, in his own streamliner, equipped with an engine he (and one colleague, mechanical engineering Professor Joe Harrelson) designed and manufactured themselves.

Manning designed and made the streamliner driven to a 265mph record in 1970 by Cal Rayborn and the Harley-Davidson team, and the heady experience of a world record first time out marked him for life. He's never kicked the speed bug, and he's never again been part of a world record holding team, although it hasn't been for want of trying. Manning has been back to the salt with streamliners outfitted with Triumph, Norton and Harley motors in the search for world-beating speed. They ran between 279 and 286 mph, but never fast enough, for long enough. Always, the result has been 'if only.'

This time Manning is hoping for no more ifs. The purpose-built motor is designed to just fit inside the motorcycle class capacity limit of three liters. Fuel will be straight methanol.

The engine design was accomplished almost exclusively on computer. The first computer modeling was an estimate of overall power requirements, using a program written in QuickBasic, running on a 486. Later, the entire crankshaft for the complicated, compact engine was modeled on the PC, as were many other parts. Natural vibration frequencies were calculated on the desktop, and another program written by Harrelson calculated bearing loads and minimum oil thickness. Harrelson notes that the design of this engine -- perhaps the only purpose built land speed record engine ever -- was only possible because of the rapid advance of PC technology.

So the land speed record holder isn't using a motorcycle engine at all, and is not legal for the class.
From "The Fastest Motorcycles on Earth"

Clockwise from top left, these photos show what?s involved in casting
your own engine block and heads (all photos by Denis Manning):
A.   First, a wooden model is made.
B.   Then a mold is set up, in this case for a head, with runners in place. The end product rests in front of the casting case.
C.   Aluminum ingots are melted down.
D.   The crucible is removed from the furnace and the molten aluminum poured into the mold.
E.   The finished parts are displayed after being machined. Manning cast enough parts for three engines. Once the mold is made, any number of parts can be cast.

[JackD]

Dean the spelling is "Denis".
Bikers in general don't get near the credit they should for being smart and some promoters think they are really dumb.
You know how upset I get when everything isn't right.
Are you trying to bait me ?  LOL

[bak189]

Hey Jack, explain why....... if you run for FIM M/C World Record.....you don't have to use a M/C motor or motors......Oh, pleas tell us Jack!!!!!!

P.S. If I recall Don Vesco was planning a run at the record with a Offy powered two-wheeler.......

[JackD]

I did not participate in the why of the FIM rule but merely read and enforced the rules as presented.
The AMA was not the same.
The SCTA , back in the day of the full disclosure and participation of the entrants created the Unlimited class (non motorcycle origin) of motor for Streamliner bikes only .
The vote of all the riders that chose to go to the open meeting was near unanimous to allow it.
The only one that ever materialized was the 2 cyl KB that never ran to it's potential and became a car after he crashed it at El Mirage.
To write a rule you not only have to understand the effect it will have on the whole of the sport but to do it effectively you should seek the council and support of the participants.
Reading skills are important too.
I was waiting for someone to ask and I am glad you did.
I think I see a pattern.

[Freud]

Jack, the pattern that you see is probably while you are wearing your 3D glasses.
I don't see, just with clear progressive lenses, any chance that this record will
be challenged. It will be contested but I sincerely doubt that it will be overturned.
Is the record being protested by anyone?
Would the FIM drop the record right out of the blue?
I doubt it. They love the publicity.
This chatter probably only relates to 3 individuals. At this time I know of
no one out side of Ack,Sam and Denis that has shown any potential to up the mark.

FREUD

[JackD]

The FIM World record does not require an engine that originated from a motorcycle and has not changed.
AMA on the other hand did and still does as evidenced by the reading of the published rule.
It is more likely they will adjust the rule to the wants of the promoter than rescind the record.
As you might expect , I saw the error right away and was waiting to see what if anything was going to happen.
If the bike community is guilty of anything it is in not reading the rules in there entirety but only focus on their own class.
The problem that presents is when you ask for an opinion it reflects only a small group.
The others quickly pick up on the various things but the lack of knowledge restricts the understanding of the logical progression of the classes.
That type of problem leads to abuses right under their nose that affects the whole of the credibility.
It is not the first or only case of that type of failure that speaks volumes.

.

[bak189]

Thank you Jack..........I knew you would clear it up for us........Oh, boy next Wed. back to sunny
California for me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!