Modified vs Altered

[sabat]

Sorry for the noob question, I'm waiting on my ECTA rulebook. What distinguishes a modified from an altered motorcycle? Wheelbase?

Thanks,
Dean

[Seldom Seen Slim]

If you'd have asked the question referring to SCTA rules -- it'd be a little bit easier to answer, since those rules have recently been "freshened" and lend themselves better to a quick quotation.

ECTA states that (first of all) wheelbase on a modified bike cannot be more than 68", so in that instance you're right, but there's no minimum wb for an altered, so you're only partly correct.

Seat and handlegrips may not be lower than a line drawn between the top of the wheel rims in modified -- you can go lower in altered.

Footpegs must be more than 6" in front of the rear axle in modified -- can be anyplace in altered.

Gas tank must be more than 1.32 gallons/5 liters in modified -- no restriction in altered.

Modified allows one engine only and 3000 cc maximum, altered says engine displacement is limited to 3001 cc and above (you figure that out and let me know just what the real limit is, okay?) but doesn't count how many engines you can install.

I guess I'd be safe in offering that the rules are sort of related to what the SCTA says -- that modified is for store-bought bikes (even factory road race and off road bikes), while altered is for more radical bikes -- whether built from the ground up, or modified so radically that they bear only a passing resemblance to a factory-built machine.

Those are generalisations, folks, and only my attempts to sort of give Dean a quick run-through.  Dean, our ECTA rulebooks arrived a week or two ago -- if you've got one on order you oughta get it soon.  If you want more specific data I could try to scan in a page or three and email them to you.  Let me know.

[sabat]

Thanks Slim, I get the drift. I'm starting with a salvage bike, so maybe I will set it up as an altered bike and get low.

Turns out I am waiting for the SCTA rulebook, and never sent in my ECTA membership $. Off it goes tonite. Thanks for the copying offer, I can wait a few weeks.

Dean

[Dean Los Angeles]

Slim, 3001 and above means unlimited. There is no upper limit. Two Allison V-1710's totaling 3,420 cubic inches, perfectly legal.

[dwarner]

From the 2007 SCTA rulebook, clearly states 2 engines in unlimited displacement classes:

7.D.4   Class, Engine Classes, max displacement and No. of Engines:
P   P, PP, PB, PPB, PV       3000         1
Production engines are permitted only in the Production frame class   
M   All except UG & UF      3000         1
MPS   All except UG & UF      3000         1
A   All except UG & UF      3001 & above      2
APS   All except UG & UF      All except UF & UG    2
S   All            All except UF & UG   2
SC   All            All except UF & UG   2
SCS   All            All except UF & UG   2

DW

[dwarner]

That didn't transfer too good did it?

DW

[Sumner]

That didn't transfer too good did it?

DW

Jack probably understood it perfectly as it was in his language  ,

Sum

[JackD]

I had to laugh when it said "Production engines are only allowed in the Production frame class"
"Rules without reason are unreasonable."

"Mock not the afflicted".

[Seldom Seen Slim]

Yes, boys and girls, I did know that 3001 and above implies "unlimited" -- but I was trying to point out a bit of circuitous language.  Why not just say "unlimited"?

Dan, I know the SCTA size rules but was trying to give ECTA stuff in my response.  Maybe I shoulda/coulda been more clear in saying that I was quoting ECTA parameters.  Really -- I'm not going goofy, just 'cause we've had about 3 feet of snow in the past week.  I'd say more but I need to go plow some more.

[JackD]

"Circuitous language" means the writer didn't understand it either and left everybody spinning although does allow selective enforcement.

[dwarner]

Lets see - Jon = 3' of snow, Dan can't decide what color shorts to wear today.

Scale tips to the left coast.

DW

[JackD]

Lets see - Jon = 3' of snow, Dan can't decide what color shorts to wear today.

Scale tips to the left coast.

DW
[/quote
Once we are 3 miles off the coast, shorts are optional however required by the Captain.
As is indicated by the invoice copies, the snow plows are resting in Denver now and the crew is busy replacing all the broken signs.

[2fast4u2c]

Slim,  the only problem I have with the modified -vs- altered rules is the fuel tank size.  When you are allowed to place a foreign object in your stock tank to only allow a lesser displacement of fuel thereby allowing you to run in altered, I feel that is very wrong.  If you want to run altered, you should actually have a tank that only holds the required amount.
in my case, I am in altered due to my wheelbase (74").

What is your thought on that allowance?

Guy

[Seldom Seen Slim]

Guy, I'd say that last year -- when I approved the fellow that had an inner tube 9so to speak) stuffed in his fuel tank so volume would be under the 1.32 gallons for altered, and then would remove it for modified's over 1.32 gallons -- I should have taken further advice, consulted with maybe just another inspector or two, maybe should have taken the question to the race director.  I certainly will do so if the situation arises in the future.

The '06 SCTA rulebook doesn't comment of the concept of "stuffing" the tank -- but the '05 book DOES specifically prohibit stuffing.  Should we take this deletion of some words to be a sign that it's okay now with them?  Consider, though, that SCTA does now specifically prohibit running in both Modified and Altered during the same racing year, so the question becomes moot there.

But we're talking ECTA here, and I don't have a previous year book handy.  The '07 book doesn't mention stuffing.  So I can't offer any defence for either my action -- or the racer that did it.  I will bring up the question in the appropriate forum, though. 

Okay, there's my official (as official as I can be, and that ain't much, I admit) take on the subject.  My personal view?  I goofed.  I should have said NO.  I should have been ready to go to others for confirmation that I was right -- or that I was wrong, and it was okay. 

So anyway, SCTA now says altered fuel tank may be of any size.  This is especially good for folks like Bob Moreland -- who burns about 10 gallons of go-juice on that humongous beast during a run down the long course.  Modified must still be at least the 1.32 gallons, and that's okay -- in keeping with the concept of modified being streetable bikes that are modified for LSR.

ECTA rules are about the same -- 1.32 gallon minimum for modified, no size specified for Altered.  So the question can't arise this year.

74" wheelbase would make your bike kinda hard to do a U-turn on the street -- I'll vote for putting you into Altered, okay?

[JackD]

You would think the various rulers would talk and share some experience so as to reduce the confusion between them and as a result they really confuse the entrants that depend on them.
An example is the SCTA ruling on minimum tank size for altered. The ruler turned it around 180 deg, didn't understand it to start with ,and them lied about it's origin so as to remove the blame from him.
It seems to be getting worse.
And so it goes.