Author Topic: OK whats the alternative  (Read 19805 times)

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Offline russ jensen

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Re: OK whats the alternative
« Reply #30 on: February 23, 2007, 10:38:49 AM »
IASCO--industrial arts supply co. 5724 west 36th street. minneapolis minnesota 55416-2494 --1-888-919-0899- from 04 cat. p,114 has e glass;kevlar49;carbon fiber cloth;etc. back then the  5oz kevlar 50" width was 29.95/yd and the 8.9 oz was 32.95/yd.  we layered either  e or s glass over kevlar on roofs as made it easier to get smooth finish. side note- am skining doors on essex w/ carbon but was told to overlay w/ kevlar as carbon isn't resistant to puncture. don't know if this info helps but these guys or fiber glast devlp. are the 2 places I got the stuff.russ
speed is expensive-how fast do you want to go?-to soon old & to late smart.

Offline JackD

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Re: OK whats the alternative
« Reply #31 on: February 23, 2007, 11:55:27 AM »
Kevlar cloth inside only works when the leather is already  gone.
When you get that far the heat from the friction will have already cooked you in place.
Molded Kevlar pads are a good anti friction material that is best used as a first contact at the points that are in rub the ground and spine impact protection.
Other forms of MC racing are different in that they are slower and the fallen rider wants to shed as much speed as possible before hitting the barriers.
LSR will benefit from less friction on the ground to reduce the heat and allow the rider more chance to stabilize the slide without the stick to the ground tumble that breaks parts.
While some burns through the material come from friction but the least considered is the thermal transfer from hot liquid that is not handled by the "ALL COW".
That is where you should be looking.
"I would rather lose going fast enough to win than win going slow enough to lose."
"That horrible smell is dirty feet being held to the fire"

Offline JackD

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Re: OK whats the alternative
« Reply #32 on: February 24, 2007, 12:09:31 AM »
With only 31 replies and over 1,000 views, I sense a problem that won't get suitable attention unless the rulers are flooded with a valid change that they can't deny.
A means has to be put into place to not only hear from more people, but a parallel abeyance file to track the progress. 
"I would rather lose going fast enough to win than win going slow enough to lose."
"That horrible smell is dirty feet being held to the fire"

Offline kspz3

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Re: OK whats the alternative
« Reply #33 on: February 24, 2007, 02:12:40 AM »
Motorcycle LSR Leathers
1 piece, all cow (2mm min.) everywhere. 1/4" brass eyelets (3 max. per side) may be installed in armpits and behind knees. All critical areas reinforced with padded kevlar, shins, knees, thighs, tailbone, spine, shoulders, shoulder blades, forearms and elbows. Critical area reinforcement can be integrated in the suit or worn under the suit as a seperate independent garment.

Simple, yet elegant.

Guy

Simple yet elegant but WRONG!!!!! :-o - Should read 2 piece with zipper. perforation allowed at riders descretion as is stretch material in joints - allowing off the shelf road racing leathers is both practical and safe - the superior comfort and ability to manage heat is a greater safety issue than over protection...... and I have the brand new - poorly engineered to SPEC leathers and then some....... I have said it before and will say it again - the current rules are causing greater risk from limiting mobility, and increasing discomgort including greater risk of suffering from overheating - it is taking money out of our pockets unnecassarily to conform to inappropriate rules..... IMHO.
KSP
« Last Edit: February 24, 2007, 02:21:28 AM by kspz3 »

bak189

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Re: OK whats the alternative
« Reply #34 on: February 25, 2007, 11:39:33 AM »
One "alternative" is to race the BUB Trials............there you can wear your Road Race Leathers (with the back hump).
If you race SCTA/BNI you have to go by their rules......like it or not..........right, Glen.

Offline Glen

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Re: OK whats the alternative
« Reply #35 on: February 25, 2007, 11:44:00 AM »
BAK, don't put me on the spot, I just time them. The MC rules were created for the drinking class, makes it easier to understand them. The only two wheel stuff I understand is riding in the desert. :-D
Glen
Crew on Turbinator II

South West, Utah

Offline JackD

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Re: OK whats the alternative
« Reply #36 on: February 25, 2007, 12:15:02 PM »
The add on back hump is a lame attempt at streamlining.
In the event of a fall it could concentrate the impact on one part of  your body that can result in the greatest potential for injury. 
"I would rather lose going fast enough to win than win going slow enough to lose."
"That horrible smell is dirty feet being held to the fire"

Offline wheelspin

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Re: OK whats the alternative
« Reply #37 on: February 25, 2007, 01:11:51 PM »
In my experience every major racing sanctioning body imposes acceptable age limits to critical safety items such as helmets, seat belts, window nets, the seat itself if made from carbon, driving suits, etc. . I would think that the age and condition of leathers, whether SCTA legal or not would be equally if not more important to the "all leather" rule. Unfortunately most leathers do not come with a date of manufacture so I see this as impossible to police. If we are truly trying to improve the safety of this system there needs to be a definitive, qualitative inspection standard for leathers, perforated ,Kevlar, or all leather.
I believe that if it were important to have all leather construction than organizations such as AMA, FIM, and the like would have implemented similar rules, these organizations see many more incidences in daily operation than the SCTA ever will. I am all for the safest possible approach however nobody has yet proven to me that all leather is safer, both from abrasion resistance ( Kevlar is more abrasion resistant) or from heat in the event of a fire ( Where Nomex is the clear winner) . We are trying to kill two birds with one stone and this is the inherent problem. If I were to write the rule it would look like this:
All motorcycles pilots must wear a safety suit that conform to the following:
Leather or Kevlar construction is mandatory, leather must be a minimum of 2mm thick, 1 or 2 piece suits are allowed, 2 piece suits must zip together a continuous 360 degrees around the riders waist. Stretch panels are allowed in non critical areas such as arm pits, back of the knee and inside the elbow. Perforations are allowed.
All safety suits must be of good construction and be in good condition with no frays, cuts, loose seams, visible damage. Worn suits must conform to the 2mm thickness rule regardless of wear. A suit manufactured within the past 7 years is recommended due to the deterioration of leather and stitching.
A full body nomex undergarment must be worn at all times, there are available for fewer than 200 dollars at any racing safety equipment manufacture.
Supplemental crash protection is recommended in the form of hard padding in the shoulders, elbows, and knees. Back protectors are strongly encouraged.
Helmets must be within the current Snell model (I think 95 or higher but may be wrong)
Aerodynamic "humps" on the riders back fall under the class and category of the motorcycle ridden ( they don?t do anything regardless, in most cases the air is going UP the riders back, they aren?t big enough to keep the airflow attached anyway)Jusy my opinion


This rules package will allow people to have freedom of choice in how they want to protect themselves and still keep some consistency in the safety standard. It will also reduce the costs of having to get a set of all leather construction leathers made (which I just had a 1300 dollar "all leather" set made by Bates). There will always be the people that don?t care about safety and because of their ignorance rules are implemented that effect the rest of us that work very hard , and spend a lot of money, making our machines safe, testing them at increasing speeds to determine stability, and buying the best safety equipment available. In the end a sanctioning body should not punish the many to protect the few.

 On another note every major sanctioning body in the US now mandates some sort of head and neck restraint for car drivers, does SCTA have a similar rule, I just figured while we were talking safety that we should not limit the impositions to motorcycles. Let?s spread the joy and include the car guys too.
Just my opinion
Nathan

Offline Glen

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Re: OK whats the alternative
« Reply #38 on: February 25, 2007, 01:30:38 PM »
wheelspin, check out the new car rules on the scta web site regarding head/neck restraints.
Glen
Glen
Crew on Turbinator II

South West, Utah

Offline Nortonist 592

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Re: OK whats the alternative
« Reply #39 on: February 25, 2007, 01:38:08 PM »
Great, just great.  More rules for our protection for crashes and injuries that haven't yet happened.  And head and neck restraints.  Jeez!!!  What is the next suggestion?  Hey! I've got an idea!  Lets just ban motorcycles altogether.  They're far too dangerous anyway.  And there is no way we can legislsate enough rules to protect riders from every concievable situation.  So lets just ban them all.  When all this is done the rule book will come in twenty volumes and be sold door to door by former encyclopedia salesmen.
Get off the stove Grandad.  You're too old to be riding the range.

Offline Glen

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Re: OK whats the alternative
« Reply #40 on: February 25, 2007, 02:08:08 PM »
Nortonest, the head and neck restraints are for the car guys, and yes it's for a reason, probably saved two people at last speedweek. The MC rules are in a different language and difficult to understand, You have to use Dolan's conversion dictionary and understand pig-latin  :?
Glen
Crew on Turbinator II

South West, Utah

Offline Dean Los Angeles

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Re: OK whats the alternative
« Reply #41 on: February 25, 2007, 03:13:41 PM »
There is a safe answer:

On the other hand, if you do have a better idea, the rules are wide open after the November 11 El Mirage race. Get yourself a rule change form and propose a better idea. The ideas are submitted to the clubs and voted on for the next year's rule book.
If we left it up to the racers we would still be using the speedo with the feet out the back. Safety overrules what the racers want. I've watched Gene Romero saw off a cast so he could go racing, and that wasn't the last time. For those of you proposing a change because your pocket book hurts, what research do you have to back it up? How many other racers do a get off at 250 on the salt? Are you up to speed on the injuries that have happened on the salt over the last 50 years? There may be a better answer than what SCTA has on the books, but just dumping on it because you had to spend money isn't the answer either.
The DRLA is going to have to find an answer also. Both organizations have a commitment to the participants to provide the safest protection for the rider.

Side note: I found a picture of Dolan and his latest rides!


Well, it used to be Los Angeles . . . 50 miles north of Fresno now.
Just remember . . . It isn't life or death.
It's bigger than life or death! It's RACING.

Offline JackD

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Re: OK whats the alternative
« Reply #42 on: February 25, 2007, 05:13:26 PM »
I am glad I was not the one that was pictured in the "Nerf Special", because that Nerd would have lost his head in the crash.
Last years MC rules were not submitted to the clubs for review and comment as were the car rule proposals.
It seems the biggest violators of the rules were the rulers.
When one of them was asked several questions about the content reasoning, and timing of the changes the universal answer at a club meeting was  "I dunno."
Take some worthwhile time and go way back on landracing and read up on the various subjects related to the MC stuff and don't be surprised to see them on the test.
The  bike COMMUNITY can change those things but it will require a united front that can't be denied. :wink:
"I would rather lose going fast enough to win than win going slow enough to lose."
"That horrible smell is dirty feet being held to the fire"

mstephenson51

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Re: OK whats the alternative
« Reply #43 on: April 02, 2007, 12:50:03 PM »
So what the heck is the answer here?  Basicly have to have leathers custom made to conform with a set of rules that are different from any other form of bike racing?

This is RACING.  In my humble opinion, the rider/driver knows that racing imposes certain risks, and if you want to be perfectly safe, DONT RACE.  I think leathers that work in Road Racing work here.

bak189

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Re: OK whats the alternative
« Reply #44 on: April 02, 2007, 04:50:27 PM »
Yes, Roadracing leathers work fine.......but you can't wear them at a SCTA/BNI Speed Trial.........
those are the rules...........BUB Speed Trial, you CAN wear your roadracing leathers.....those are the rulesl.......