Author Topic: Vintage Engines & new rules clarification??  (Read 48230 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline NathanStewart

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1241
Re: Vintage Engines & new rules clarification??
« Reply #90 on: July 15, 2010, 03:56:06 PM »

Unblown Fuel Roadster - /FR
XF   Pappas & Stevens   J. Stevens   08/96   162.490
XO   Don Ferguson Sr. & Jr.   D. Ferguson Jr.   08/95   182.982
XXF   Ferguson Racing   D. Ferguson III   08/07   196.154
XXO   Goldman & Shores   G. Goldman   08/09   215.748

I don't see your point Mike.  Are you suggesting that all the current records holders must some how make so much power that they need traction control?  I don't think I agree with you if that's your point.  You guys do understand that cubic inches to cubic inches, these records are waaaay slow compared to non-vintage motors right?  But that's the reason we have the separate class. 

I want to point out one record in particular that you mentioned Mike.  The first one up there at the top of my quote; XF/FR @ 162 and change.  Up until last year, we held the V4/FR record at 169 mph with a 215 ci banger.  No TC needed.  :roll:
El Mirage 200 MPH Club Member

Offline 4-barrel Mike

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3173
  • Any fool can drive a V8
Re: Vintage Engines & new rules clarification??
« Reply #91 on: July 15, 2010, 04:42:14 PM »
Good-bye, Nathan.   :cheers:
Mike Kelly - PROUD owner of the V4F that powered the #1931 VGC to a 82.803 mph record in 2008!

Offline NathanStewart

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1241
Re: Vintage Engines & new rules clarification??
« Reply #92 on: July 15, 2010, 05:02:32 PM »
Don't go away mad Mike.  Just go away knowing that you CAN NOT used a computer controlled ignition system.  Show up with one and I will personally submit a protest.
El Mirage 200 MPH Club Member

Offline NathanStewart

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1241
Re: Vintage Engines & new rules clarification??
« Reply #93 on: July 15, 2010, 05:15:09 PM »


Nathan,

What do you think of a language change in the rule book?

Tom G.

Tom, I partially agree with your suggestion.  Just to give some back ground on me and my experience outside of LSR, I've worked in the aftermarket automotive industry now for a few years and when I write instruction manuals for a product I've developed I do so with the knowledge that people who know little or nothing about cars in general will be installing and using this certain product.  So I try to know my audience and write at a level that anyone can understand.  So that part of me says, yes, dumb it down if you will and make it so obvious there absolutely couldn't be a question about it.

The other part of me says that we aren't dealing with dummies here.  These are all intelligent people who can clearly speak and read English.  I think what's going on here is that people are trying to make it say something that it doesn't.  I think if they keep asking it over and over and going to different people they think they might hear the answer that they want to hear.  So part of my says no, it's fine as is and the proof is that it's been fine so far and I'd like to say that almost all of our current competitors have been able to follow these rules so far without issue.  They seem to get it just fine.

So like Creel says, more words, same rule.  Is that what we really need?  Maybe.
El Mirage 200 MPH Club Member

Offline desotoman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2815
Re: Vintage Engines & new rules clarification??
« Reply #94 on: July 15, 2010, 06:26:12 PM »
Nathan,

Thanks for the reply, I appreciate it. I understand what you are saying about more words same rule. So how about we just remove Number 4. Why do we need to say Any ignition system can be used, when in essence that is not true. We go to the extent to spell out in Number 3. that EFI is prohibited, yet that is controlled by a computer, and Number 2 would over rule that. I can see where it does get confusing. Maybe just remove both Number 3 and Number 4.



Page 17, vintage engines in Vintage Body's:

1.  No turbochargers are permitted.  
2.  Computers are allowed for data collection purposes only.
3.  Electronic Fuel Injection prohibited.  
4.  Any ignition system may be used.  


OR maybe we should change the whole thing to read something to the effect of:

1.  No turbochargers are permitted.
2.  Computers are allowed for data collection purposes only, No computer controlled
devices (microprocessors) of any kind affecting and or controlling engine operation will be permitted.

This would cover any new technology that would come out in the future. And be one less line in the rule book.

Tom G.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2010, 06:30:14 PM by desotoman »
I love the USA. How much longer will we be a free nation?

Asking questions is one's only way of getting answers.

The rational person lets verified facts form or modify his opinion.  The ideologue ignores verified facts which don't fit his preconceived opinions.

Offline NathanStewart

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1241
Re: Vintage Engines & new rules clarification??
« Reply #95 on: July 15, 2010, 07:20:01 PM »
Tom, I think you're on the right track.  Good suggestions.
El Mirage 200 MPH Club Member

Offline jimmy six

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2785
Re: Vintage Engines & new rules clarification??
« Reply #96 on: July 19, 2010, 12:18:49 AM »
4-B Mike...I feel slighted you left my XO/GR record off your listing......The tongue lashings will begin :evil:...JD
First GMC 6 powered Fuel roadster over 200, with 2 red hats. Pit crew for Patrick Tone's Super Stock #49 Camaro

Offline 4-barrel Mike

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3173
  • Any fool can drive a V8
Re: Vintage Engines & new rules clarification??
« Reply #97 on: July 19, 2010, 12:29:50 AM »
But JD, you of all people wouldn't need traction control.   :mrgreen:

Mike
Mike Kelly - PROUD owner of the V4F that powered the #1931 VGC to a 82.803 mph record in 2008!

Offline 4-barrel Mike

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3173
  • Any fool can drive a V8
Re: Vintage Engines & new rules clarification??
« Reply #98 on: July 19, 2010, 12:38:42 AM »
Just for the record, I started this thread in December 2006, attempting to clarify an ambiguity in the new for 2007 rules.  No authoritative answer was given and the query was dropped that month.

Earlier this month this thread was brought back up asking the still unanswered question.

After a lot of flailing about, it turned that that a(n apparently large) number of people had drawn some bad conclusions about the rule as written.

Today I was told by an SCTA official that NO programmable ignitions may be used on a vintage engine in a vintage body.  Fine.  I accept that, no problem.

The process could have been a lot easier, but I finally have the answer to the question I asked in 2006.

Thanks to all who participated.

Good luck, Pedro!   :cheers:

Mike
Mike Kelly - PROUD owner of the V4F that powered the #1931 VGC to a 82.803 mph record in 2008!

Offline jimmy six

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2785
Re: Vintage Engines & new rules clarification??
« Reply #99 on: July 19, 2010, 02:10:54 PM »
 :-D So I don't make enough HP to need traction control but I'm faster than 5 of the listed ones. Strange!! JD
First GMC 6 powered Fuel roadster over 200, with 2 red hats. Pit crew for Patrick Tone's Super Stock #49 Camaro

Offline 4-barrel Mike

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3173
  • Any fool can drive a V8
Re: Vintage Engines & new rules clarification??
« Reply #100 on: July 19, 2010, 02:37:36 PM »
I was thinking more of good driver skills rather than lack of horsepower, but, ok, I've editted you in.   :cheers:

Mike
« Last Edit: July 19, 2010, 06:15:21 PM by 4-barrel Mike »
Mike Kelly - PROUD owner of the V4F that powered the #1931 VGC to a 82.803 mph record in 2008!

Offline jimmy six

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2785
Re: Vintage Engines & new rules clarification??
« Reply #101 on: July 20, 2010, 02:03:50 AM »
Like Mike Cook says "my right foot is my traction control".......................just like mine.........JD
First GMC 6 powered Fuel roadster over 200, with 2 red hats. Pit crew for Patrick Tone's Super Stock #49 Camaro

Offline nebulous

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 116
Re: Vintage Engines & new rules clarification??
« Reply #102 on: October 07, 2010, 07:27:47 PM »

 If you want to slow down, just take your foot off the gas!
 Jack
Jack Costella   
"Records are set by effort, not by the stroke of a pen!"

Offline panic

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 845
    • My tech papers
Re: Vintage Engines & new rules clarification??
« Reply #103 on: October 07, 2010, 11:48:33 PM »
And still we have problems with officials believing that a rule says what they think it says.

"NO programmable ignitions may be used", of course, rules out centrifugal advance (since its behavior is variable, and pre-set in anticipation of use but the execution only occurs in operation so it's not an adjustment). A "program" was used to produce a textile pattern in a loom 400 years ago.

Let me guess, the usual remarks apply here:
1. "don't be ridiculous"
2. "everyone knows what it means"
3. "why are you making trouble"

Oh, did you mean to prohibit non-mechanical programs?

Let me know when you want any of this stuff cleared up...

Offline johnneilson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 502
Re: Vintage Engines & new rules clarification??
« Reply #104 on: October 08, 2010, 12:19:16 AM »
No dog in this hunt, but I will throw this out for reference.

Some years ago in kart racing, programmable ignitions were used.
When some folks went faster than other "tuners" the myth of traction control was thrown into the hype of the programmable ignitions.
This started up one big shiz storm and killed the motor class along with the performance. It also started up the stock ignition box/cheater ign box wars.

The truth is that in order for a "computor ignition" system to perform the function of TC, an external sensor must be employed.

Be careful of the "computer" label on ignitions, you could probably argue that a MSD 6 box with rev limiter could be labeled as a computer.

BTW, I am now looking for a Sun dist machine.

Cheers, John
As Carroll Smith wrote; All Failures are Human in Origin.