Author Topic: Vintage Engines & new rules clarification??  (Read 48225 times)

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Offline NathanStewart

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Re: Vintage Engines & new rules clarification??
« Reply #75 on: July 15, 2010, 01:28:27 AM »
Nathan, Then how do you classify traction control modules with the ignition?   They have a processor and are programmable with a computer for wheel slip and can control the ignition.  It is conceivable with some work someone can change it do a host of other things on the ignition side.  Just curious.  Tony


Computers can be used for data collection only.  Nothing that's computer controlled can affect engine operation.  Therefore I would think computer controlled traction devices would be illegal for vintage engines in vintage bodies.

Nathan, So the way I am interpreting your comment is no traction control in vintage classes. From my basic understanding of traction control, most systems take two wheel speed imputes and calculate the difference in wheel speed and pull cylinders to compensate for lack of traction. Correct me if I am wrong, but this would be illegal. Will the rule be rewritten to reflect that no traction control in vintage classes for next year?  I would imagine there would be a slew of vintage cars this year at speed week with traction control.  I don’t care where the line is drawn in the sand as long its drawn and there is no selective enforcement. Tony

Why would it need to be rewritten if it already clearly says computers can only be used for data recording?  Doesn't that already answer your question?  Personally, I don't think the usage of TC is very predominant in our sport, let alone on vintage engines in vintage bodies.  
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Offline NathanStewart

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Re: Vintage Engines & new rules clarification??
« Reply #76 on: July 15, 2010, 01:36:41 AM »
IMO this all come down to the definition of a computer. So is the MSD unit considered a computer or not? When that is addressed, you will have your answer.

Tom G.



Something that uses a 9 pin serial cable and PC software sure as shit sounds like a computer to me.  If you want something that reduces ignition timing as manifold pressure increases use the MSD BTM.  It's NOT a computer.
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Offline maguromic

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Re: Vintage Engines & new rules clarification??
« Reply #77 on: July 15, 2010, 01:44:50 AM »
Quote
Why would it need to be rewritten if it already clearly says computers can only be used for data recording?  Doesn't that already answer your question?  Personally, I don't think the usage of TC is very predominant in our sport, let alone on vintage engines in vintage bodies.  

Because the rulebook contradicts itself by saying traction control is legal in all classes. I don’t know how prevalent traction control is, but last year I saw at least 5 vintage cars that had it, and from talking just to the Motec guys they said they sold quit a few units when the rule was opened up so I would assume there are more in other classes. Then there are the other systems aside from Motec.   Tony
« Last Edit: July 15, 2010, 01:48:00 AM by maguromic »
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Offline desotoman

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Re: Vintage Engines & new rules clarification??
« Reply #78 on: July 15, 2010, 01:48:14 AM »
Nathan,

Thanks for the education. Much appreciated. Now if I can ask a favor? For people who are not familiar with the rule book, I feel the wording should be changed and not state that any ignition is allowed. Since that is really not true. I feel this would help eliminate any confusion. Maybe it should say Any ignition is allowed as long as the ignition is not computer controlled or have a microprocessor which can be programmed.  

What do you think?

Tom G.
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Offline NathanStewart

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Re: Vintage Engines & new rules clarification??
« Reply #79 on: July 15, 2010, 10:51:17 AM »
last year I saw at least 5 vintage cars that had it

Really?  At least five vintage cars with vintage engines are using TC? 
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Offline Stan Back

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Re: Vintage Engines & new rules clarification??
« Reply #80 on: July 15, 2010, 11:17:21 AM »
Have to remember that "Vintage Cars" include AA/BFMRs.

Stan
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Offline xxobuick

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Re: Vintage Engines & new rules clarification??
« Reply #81 on: July 15, 2010, 11:28:49 AM »
So what about cars that hold records in Vintage engines, with Vintage bodies that have processor controlled ignitions?

I belive I have seen them in the past.

Should those records be held, or deleted, or?

How is it fair for the rest of us to under-compete?

Offline NathanStewart

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Re: Vintage Engines & new rules clarification??
« Reply #82 on: July 15, 2010, 12:23:07 PM »
Quote from: Stan Back
Have to remember that "Vintage Cars" include AA/BFMRs.

Stan

Yeah I think that's where Tony is maybe confused.  I'm talking about vintage engines in vintages bodies, not the vintage body class all together.  

Didn't know us vintage engine guys were making so much power to require the use of TC.   :-P
« Last Edit: July 15, 2010, 03:47:29 PM by NathanStewart »
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Offline 4-barrel Mike

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Re: Vintage Engines & new rules clarification??
« Reply #83 on: July 15, 2010, 12:55:53 PM »

Didn't know us vintage engine guys were making so much power to require the use of TC.  

 :?

Blown Fuel Modified Roadster - /BFMR
XF   Hogan, Martin & Rea   A. Rea   08/08   180.627
XXF   Ferguson Racing   D. Ferguson III   10/09   235.287

Unblown Fuel Modified Roadster - /FMR
XF   Don Ferguson Sr. & Jr   D. Ferguson Jr.   08/80   173.053
XO   Don Ferguson Sr. & Jr. & III   D. Ferguson Jr.   08/88   207.369
XXF   Ferguson Racing   D. Ferguson Jr.   08/08   214.553
XXO   Don Ferguson Sr., Jr., III & Randy   D. Ferguson, Jr.   08/91   209.895

Blown Gas Modified Roadster - /BGMR
XF   Thompson Racing   M. Reyman   08/09   194.555
XO   Maranatha Spl   D. Crower   08/87   194.415
XXF   Kings Ransom   K. Walton   08/01   195.038

Unblown Gas Modified Roadster - /GMR
XF   Pappas & Stevens   J. Stevens   08/97   164.558
XO   Flat Trap Racing   J. Kay   09/08   168.677
XXF   Ferguson / Osborn / Spacek   M. Osborn   08/02   202.974
XXO   Jack's Bar   R. Victor   08/01   175.506

Blown Fuel Roadster - /BFR
XF   Hogan - Martin - Rea   A. Rea   08/06   189.785
XXF   Munz & Busby   D. Busby   10/09   200.875

Unblown Fuel Roadster - /FR
XF   Pappas & Stevens   J. Stevens   08/96   162.490
XO   Don Ferguson Sr. & Jr.   D. Ferguson Jr.   08/95   182.982
XXF   Ferguson Racing   D. Ferguson III   08/07   196.154
XXO   Goldman & Shores   G. Goldman   08/09   215.748

Blown Gas Roadster - /BGR
XF   Hi Boy   D. Monaco   08/06   175.880
XXF   Wasted Willie Flatheads   W. Glass   08/06   208.243

Unblown Gas Roadster - /GR
XO         Tone Motorsports               J.D. Tone 10/09    166.001
XXF   Wasted Willie Flatheads   W. Glass   08/09   187.292
XXO   Morrill & Thornton                B. Morrill   08/87   180.894

Blown Street Roadster - /BSTR
XF   Mariani Farms   D. Mariani   08/09   162.421
XO   Bajurin & Swansborough   D. Bajurin   08/09   158.915
XXF   Munz & Busby   J. Busby   10/09   195.457

Unblown Street Roadster - /STR
XF   Pappas & Stevens   J. Stevens   08/00   165.671
XO   Marsh Runyon   M. Runyon   08/09   153.688
XXF   Munz & Busby   J. Busby   08/08   171.865
XXO   Lee Tull   L. Tull   08/91   169.491

edit: added JD
« Last Edit: July 19, 2010, 02:34:56 PM by 4-barrel Mike »
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Offline RichFox

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Re: Vintage Engines & new rules clarification??
« Reply #84 on: July 15, 2010, 12:57:20 PM »
There are two and shortly maybe three Vintage engines going three hundred MPH. That qualifies as enough power to me.

Offline desotoman

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Re: Vintage Engines & new rules clarification??
« Reply #85 on: July 15, 2010, 02:12:52 PM »
Nathan,

Thanks for the education. Much appreciated. Now if I can ask a favor? For people who are not familiar with the rule book, I feel the wording should be changed and not state that any ignition is allowed. Since that is really not true. I feel this would help eliminate any confusion. Maybe it should say Any ignition is allowed as long as the ignition is not computer controlled or have a microprocessor which can be programmed.  

What do you think ?

Tom G.

Nathan,

What do you think of a language change in the rule book?

Tom G.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2010, 03:13:36 PM by desotoman »
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Offline maguromic

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Re: Vintage Engines & new rules clarification??
« Reply #86 on: July 15, 2010, 03:16:50 PM »
Nathan, My point was not about traction control, but how vague the rule is written. For example the rulebook says any frame could be used except in some class rules like STR of GC it spells out what the frame should be. So when the book says traction control is legal in all classes and any ignition is legal in vintage what does that suppose to mean. Intent of the rule is great, but many of us aren’t mind readers and don’t know what was on the mind of the rule writer.  Also if you took a hard look I think you would be surprised at how many traction control units are being used in LSR.

As for vintage engines not have much HP, I think you might have been misinformed.  Other than the posted references, I know of a V4 that is making over 400hp.  This is not hearsay; I was in the dyno cell when they were making the pulls a few weeks ago, and they thought they could get more with a better tune up, and its going in a street roadster.

I have no dog in this fight and I have no traction control and my vintage engine has a magneto, but the rules need to be more clear as evident from this thread.  Tony :cheers:
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Offline desotoman

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Re: Vintage Engines & new rules clarification??
« Reply #87 on: July 15, 2010, 03:25:35 PM »

As for vintage engines not have much HP, I think you might have been misinformed.  Other than the posted references, I know of a V4 that is making over 400hp.  This is not hearsay; I was in the dyno cell when they were making the pulls a few weeks ago, and they thought they could get more with a better tune up, and its going in a street roadster.

 
Tony :cheers:


Tony,

At El Mirage that Roadster should run in the 165 + range with that kind of HP. Looking forward to seeing it run.

Tom G.
I love the USA. How much longer will we be a free nation?

Asking questions is one's only way of getting answers.

The rational person lets verified facts form or modify his opinion.  The ideologue ignores verified facts which don't fit his preconceived opinions.

Offline maguromic

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Re: Vintage Engines & new rules clarification??
« Reply #88 on: July 15, 2010, 03:38:00 PM »
 Tom, It’s not my engine or car, I only built them the head.  It’s an ex IRL Aurora head that’s been cut up and welded together.  I have no idea what the rest of the engine is built with, but I know it’s a legal engine.  They are redoing some of the car and hopefully it should make the last Elmo meet this year. Tony
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Offline NathanStewart

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Re: Vintage Engines & new rules clarification??
« Reply #89 on: July 15, 2010, 03:46:56 PM »
Wow I screwed up this post pretty bad.  What I was trying to do was point out that I added a smiley face to my mention of vintage engines not making lots of power or whatever I said so you guys can see that I'm being facetious.  I forgot that you can't read sarcasm.   :roll:  See, the smiley face makes it all make sense, right?
« Last Edit: July 15, 2010, 05:21:59 PM by NathanStewart »
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