Vintage Engines & new rules clarification??

[desotoman]

Mike,

Disclamer, I am not an SCTA official. Reading the rule book, even under the heading of vintage engines in vintage body classes it clearly states 4. Any ignition system may be used.

An ignition system, IMO is not a computer controlled engine management system. Big difference.

But, I will tell you from experience with the vintage engine class, just because the rules read what they do today, does not mean they will not change next year. So if this is a long term project wait until the last minute to buy an ignition system.

Tom G.

PS. If I am incorrect, IMO the wording in the rule book should be changed to say NO ELECTRONIC IGNITIONS, the same way it spells out NO EFI.

[maguromic]

Just to wrap this up for myself, I know what the intent of the rule was meant to be and I also know that no computers precludes computer controlled ignition systems.  If the rules need to be tightened up and made more obvious, we will submit a rule change to add more words to make it even more clear to everyone that computer controlled anything is ILLEGAL for use on vintage engines in vintage bodies.  In the mean time, protests can clear up anything that might be questionable.  

So traction control in vintage classes is illegal? Tony

[4-barrel Mike]

Just to wrap this up for myself, I know what the intent of the rule was meant to be and I also know that no computers precludes computer controlled ignition systems.  

Cool!  Please explain the intent of "4. Any ignition SYSTEM..."  It seemed like such a simple question in 2006 

Mike

[xxobuick]

If we are to go striclty by the book, it says,


NO efi

No turbos,

ANY I repeat ANY ign system can be used.  Any means any, not some, not most, but ANY.  I guess I will build my xx0 pro with a crank trigger per the rules?

[johnneilson]

Tony,

could the TC be done without adding some other sensor or pickup to the ignition?

Just a question, comes from karting ignition systems.

John

[maguromic]

John,

I don’t know if there is or not, but I was just trying to make a point that a blanket statement of computer controlled anything is illegal is wrong. I have seen vintage class cars with digital dashes that are controlled by the data logger. Does that make them illegal? In fact last year on the salt I saw more than one data logging system on vintage class cars that had telemetry.   Conceivably these could be configured to control the ignition remotely from the pits.  About 3 years ago I heard the argument from a vintage racer to ban multiple coils.  Then I pointed out to him the fact anyone that wanted to run a stock Model T would be out of luck because they had multiple coils from the factory. My point is no mater how the rule is written or will be re written its one of those unenforceable rules. I am not privy to how the any ignition rule came about but my guess is it was just to hard to police. Kind of like the no traction control rule was.

Besides, if the intent is to stop adjustable ignition systems, you don’t need electronics to do it.  You could simply run multiple ignition systems or if you had a supercharged car, I would run the Ford Indy Car system from the ‘60’s with the Hilborn boost valve on the fuel tank.  Tony

[NathanStewart]

If we are to go striclty by the book, it says,


NO efi

No turbos,

ANY I repeat ANY ign system can be used.  Any means any, not some, not most, but ANY.  I guess I will build my xx0 pro with a crank trigger per the rules?

So long as your DIS doesn't use a computer you'd be fine.  Computers can ONLY be used for data recording! 

[NathanStewart]

However, when you and DW disagree, who gets the last vote? 

The board does after the protest is initiated.

[NathanStewart]

Nathan, Then how do you classify traction control modules with the ignition?   They have a processor and are programmable with a computer for wheel slip and can control the ignition.  It is conceivable with some work someone can change it do a host of other things on the ignition side.  Just curious.  Tony

Computers can be used for data collection only.  Nothing that's computer controlled can affect engine operation.  Therefore I would think computer controlled traction devices would be illegal for vintage engines in vintage bodies.

[38flattie]

Mike,
 I don't fully know how much you're involved with running a car or if you've even ran before or if you're building a car to run but I think you're seeing things like an outsider looking in and I'm seeing things like an insider looking out.[/quote]

 I can't speak for Mike, But I AM am outsider looking in. I'm trying to put my first salt car together, to make my first run. If I can use the controller I will- It has advantages that allow for more HP and efficiency.
 I'm asking the same question as Mike, so that I don't waste time and money on something I won't be able to use.
 Respectfully, it appears that I'm getting the same answers as Mike- 1)yes you can if it's pre-progammed, and not programmabe on the fly. 2) No you can't, it's a computer.
 It seems to me, outsider or not, that this should be a quetion that's easier to get an answer for than it has been.
 So again, respectfully,can we get a collective answer?

[maguromic]

Nathan, Then how do you classify traction control modules with the ignition?   They have a processor and are programmable with a computer for wheel slip and can control the ignition.  It is conceivable with some work someone can change it do a host of other things on the ignition side.  Just curious.  Tony

Computers can be used for data collection only.  Nothing that's computer controlled can affect engine operation.  Therefore I would think computer controlled traction devices would be illegal for vintage engines in vintage bodies.

Nathan, So the way I am interpreting your comment is no traction control in vintage classes. From my basic understanding of traction control, most systems take two wheel speed imputes and calculate the difference in wheel speed and pull cylinders to compensate for lack of traction. Correct me if I am wrong, but this would be illegal. Will the rule be rewritten to reflect that no traction control in vintage classes for next year?  I would imagine there would be a slew of vintage cars this year at speed week with traction control.  I don’t care where the line is drawn in the sand as long its drawn and there is no selective enforcement. Tony

[38flattie]

Sorry, double post

[NathanStewart]

The ignition system you specifically mentioned uses a microprocessor and is programmed using PC software.  So, would you agree with me that by using this exact ignition system a computer is being used to affect engine operation?  Assuming you do agree with me, would you always agree with me that the rule book clearly says computers are allowed for data collection only for vintage engines in vintage bodies?  Would you agree with me that this would make the computer controlled ignition system you want to run illegal?

  

[38flattie]

The ignition system you specifically mentioned uses a microprocessor and is programmed using PC software.  So, would you agree with me that by using this exact ignition system a computer is being used to affect engine operation?  Assuming you do agree with me, would you always agree with me that the rule book clearly says computers are allowed for data collection only for vintage engines in vintage bodies?  Would you agree with me that this would make the computer controlled ignition system you want to run illegal?

  

I understand what you are saying, and I don't disagree with you. I know that systems like this have/or maybe are being run, and simply wanted clarification as to it was legal for me to do.

Being new to this, I'll probably have more! 

[desotoman]

IMO this all come down to the definition of a computer. So is the MSD unit considered a computer or not? When that is addressed, you will have your answer.

Tom G.