Author Topic: Vintage Engines & new rules clarification??  (Read 48313 times)

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Offline Dynoroom

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Re: Vintage Engines & new rules clarification??
« Reply #45 on: July 14, 2010, 11:57:39 AM »
SCTA board meeting this Friday night. This question "might" make for good cannon fodder.    :evil:
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Offline NathanStewart

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Re: Vintage Engines & new rules clarification??
« Reply #46 on: July 14, 2010, 12:25:02 PM »
Sigh.  It also fits "4....any ignition."  See the original question. 

Mike

Well now you have a computer controlling your ignition so you're half way to having a stand alone engine management system.  Might as well allow EFI.  Doesn't the first line of the paragraph describing the limitation of vintage engines in vintage bodies mention something about historical authenticity?   
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Offline dw230

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Re: Vintage Engines & new rules clarification??
« Reply #47 on: July 14, 2010, 12:39:17 PM »
Yes Nathan. But that has been superceded by those that made the "any ignition" rule and now have allowed extensive block modifications.

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Offline 4-barrel Mike

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Re: Vintage Engines & new rules clarification??
« Reply #48 on: July 14, 2010, 12:41:42 PM »
Sigh.  It also fits "4....any ignition."  See the original question. 

Mike

Well now you have a computer controlling your ignition so you're half way to having a stand alone engine management system.  Might as well allow EFI.  Doesn't the first line of the paragraph describing the limitation of vintage engines in vintage bodies mention something about historical authenticity?   

I would say that "historical authenticity" is long gone:

Engine/drivetrain:
1.  Modern-style rollcage required
2.  Modern fire suppression required
3.  Full modern driver protection required
4.  Modern wheels required
5.  Flywheel ballistic blanket allowed
6.  Modern carburetion (i.e. circle track Holley's, dual side-draft Webers) allowed.
7.  Modern clutches and transmissions not dis-allowed.
8.  Multi-piece CNC milled heads not dis-allowed.
9.  Modern alloy pistons used.
10.  Billet connecting rods used.
11.  Modern rear ends used.
12.  Modern tires (generally) used.
13.  Modern Joe Hunt (type) magnetos used.

Vintage Bodies:
Please explain to me how one-piece plastic roadster bodies, no non-aero body gaps anywhere, without opening doors, hinges, cowl vents, etc. meet the spirit or letter of "exact replica".

This is off of the top of my head.  I'm sure I've left a lot out.  Using a modern ignition will allow builders to build more reliable and (ultimately) cheaper vintage engines while harming "authenticity" less than any of the above cited examples of non-authenticity.

Very respectfully,

Mike
Mike Kelly - PROUD owner of the V4F that powered the #1931 VGC to a 82.803 mph record in 2008!

Offline NathanStewart

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Re: Vintage Engines & new rules clarification??
« Reply #49 on: July 14, 2010, 12:50:38 PM »
I guess there are two ways to read the rule then.  One way says that the no computers rule trumps the any ignition system  rule and the other way says that the any ignition system rule, including ones that use computers, trumps the no computers rule.  

The way the I read the new vintage engine rules leads me to believe that we've put a limitation on extensive block modifications.  
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Offline xxobuick

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Re: Vintage Engines & new rules clarification??
« Reply #50 on: July 14, 2010, 01:19:19 PM »
Ok so it was mentioned that that any ignition system can be used as long as it does not controll any more parameters then the original one did. 

So...

Orignial ignition had a pre-set ignition curve controlled by TWO varibles:


Vacuum advance, via a vacuum line conected to the dizzy from the intake,


As well as Centrifigul weights, which varied by RPM.


So A Crank controlled ignition can be used, and the ignition "box" can have two imputs, just like the orignial dizzy did, therefore a RPM signal from the crank angle sensor, as well as a line from the intake manifold, correct?


That is how I read it, but again, alot for interpitation.

Offline NathanStewart

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Re: Vintage Engines & new rules clarification??
« Reply #51 on: July 14, 2010, 02:59:54 PM »
The solution is simple.  

Everyone in Warnerville should be trained to be able to verify the exact functioning of the "black box" connected to this current record-holding distributorless-ignition system equipped V4F.



 :mrgreen:

Mike

There in lies one of the biggest misconceptions in recent SCTA history; the notion that just because one guy did it and they hold a record makes their illegal whatever-it-may-be legal for everyone else despite what the rule book says. 
« Last Edit: July 14, 2010, 03:17:24 PM by NathanStewart »
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Offline NathanStewart

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Re: Vintage Engines & new rules clarification??
« Reply #52 on: July 14, 2010, 03:52:45 PM »
I would say that "historical authenticity" is long gone:

Engine/drivetrain:
1.  Modern-style rollcage required
2.  Modern fire suppression required
3.  Full modern driver protection required
4.  Modern wheels required
5.  Flywheel ballistic blanket allowed
6.  Modern carburetion (i.e. circle track Holley's, dual side-draft Webers) allowed.
7.  Modern clutches and transmissions not dis-allowed.
8.  Multi-piece CNC milled heads not dis-allowed.
9.  Modern alloy pistons used.
10.  Billet connecting rods used.
11.  Modern rear ends used.
12.  Modern tires (generally) used.
13.  Modern Joe Hunt (type) magnetos used.

Vintage Bodies:
Please explain to me how one-piece plastic roadster bodies, no non-aero body gaps anywhere, without opening doors, hinges, cowl vents, etc. meet the spirit or letter of "exact replica".

This is off of the top of my head.  I'm sure I've left a lot out.  Using a modern ignition will allow builders to build more reliable and (ultimately) cheaper vintage engines while harming "authenticity" less than any of the above cited examples of non-authenticity.

Very respectfully,

Mike

Mike,

Based on the points you highlighted I would have to whole heartedly disagree with your assesment of the current state of historical authenticity. 

First, safety rules, body classification rules, and engine class rules are three separate paradigms that are incommensurable.  This topic concerns vintage engines being used purely in vintage bodies.  Modern safety equipment has absolutely no relevance to the historical authenticity of the vintage engine class.  A vehicles asthetics is well beyond the scope of "historical authenticity" in regards to the vintage engine class.  Or, for lack of better words, how the car looks has nothing to do with anything in this discussion.  This also goes for plastic replica bodies too. 

Also, a quick look through the rule book and I don't see any mention of historical authenticity any where else but in the vintage engine rules.   I personally doubt anyone is looking for increased reliability from a modern ignition system.  I'd only use one the make more power and go faster. 

Isn't "modern carburetion" an oxymoron?  :-D
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Offline maguromic

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Re: Vintage Engines & new rules clarification??
« Reply #53 on: July 14, 2010, 05:22:40 PM »
Quote

Isn't "modern carburetion" an oxymoron?  :-D


Only if you’re wearing loose fitting tights eating jumbo shrimp.   :-P Tony
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Offline 4-barrel Mike

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Re: Vintage Engines & new rules clarification??
« Reply #54 on: July 14, 2010, 06:26:26 PM »

Mike,

Based on the points you highlighted I would have to whole heartedly disagree with your assesment of the current state of historical authenticity. 

First, safety rules, body classification rules, and engine class rules are three separate paradigms that are incommensurable.  This topic concerns vintage engines being used purely in vintage bodies.  Modern safety equipment has absolutely no relevance to the historical authenticity of the vintage engine class.  A vehicles asthetics is well beyond the scope of "historical authenticity" in regards to the vintage engine class.  Or, for lack of better words, how the car looks has nothing to do with anything in this discussion.  This also goes for plastic replica bodies too. 

Also, a quick look through the rule book and I don't see any mention of historical authenticity any where else but in the vintage engine rules.   I personally doubt anyone is looking for increased reliability from a modern ignition system.  I'd only use one the make more power and go faster. 

Isn't "modern carburetion" an oxymoron?  :-D


Nathan:

It's obvious we are using words differently.  In my limited understanding of the English language, "historic authenticity" MUST include how the vehicle looks.

1.  I'm not arguing against anything that I listed, particularly not against safety requirements.  I listed them (and I've thought of many things left out) to illustrate the lack of "historic authenticity" (and against your argument that allowing a "modern" igntion would not be historically authentic.)
2.  You brought bodies into the discussion, but I went beyond the current arguement.
3.  Yes, for vintage engines which are not allowed EFI (and I know pretty much what Pete Richardson paid for his Hilborn mechanical FI - more than I could consider), Holley 500 (350?) CFM racing 2-barrels are modern, at least compared to Strombergs or Winfields.  (I use Strombergs, but I bought my collection when they were cheap  :mrgreen:)

By my understanding, there is little "historic authenticity" in the engine pictured in this thread.  Beyond the block and perhaps the timing cover, I see nothing that is historically authentic.  I doubt that you would find much more in a picture of either of Sunday's record setting V4F's.  By my definition, a brand-new in the box magneto from Joe Hunt is modern and not vintage or historic.  It is no more anachronistic to my eye than the DIS on the Dodge.

When I used the word "reliability", I was using it in a much narrower sense than normal.  A Ford V4 with the ignition driven off of the camshaft between two of the three bearings, will NOT fire correctly 100% of the time and the cam is flexing everytime it pushes a valve up, not to mention the inevitable slop in the 1920's design of the gears and the driveshaft.  Using a programmable box taking engine position directly from the crankshaft will fire correctly more reliably (closer to 100% of the time).  Cost compared to a new magneto is similar.  Oh!  and it will make a few more horsepower, won't it??

This thread was a request for clarification of the new for 2007 rules for vintage engines.  My inquiry was dropped shortly thereafter because there was no clear answer given.  After looking at pictures of record-setting cars (and I know that non-conforming cars have had approved records) I thought that the point was moot.  Apparently it is not.

However, when you and DW disagree, who gets the last vote?   :-D

Mike
Mike Kelly - PROUD owner of the V4F that powered the #1931 VGC to a 82.803 mph record in 2008!

Offline desotoman

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Re: Vintage Engines & new rules clarification??
« Reply #55 on: July 14, 2010, 07:09:53 PM »
Mike,

Are your main concerns erratic timing with a stock distributor or mag? If so, can you run the distributor off the front of the cam? Or can you run a belt drive off the crank?

IMO "historical authenticity" is long gone. You can thank some deep pockets for that.

Tom G.

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Offline 4-barrel Mike

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Re: Vintage Engines & new rules clarification??
« Reply #56 on: July 14, 2010, 07:20:39 PM »
Tom:

  All that I've wanted all along is a simple and hopefully lasting clarification of the rules that went into effect for 2007, after that I don't know where I'll be going :-)

  Seems that a lot of people have a lot of opinions and bring non-germane arguments into the discussion (who, me?  :mrgreen:)

  Second hand, DW says the stuff is legal, but that aint' straight from the horse's mouth (so to speak)  :-D

Mike
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Offline NathanStewart

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Re: Vintage Engines & new rules clarification??
« Reply #57 on: July 14, 2010, 07:41:19 PM »

Nathan:

It's obvious we are using words differently.  In my limited understanding of the English language, "historic authenticity" MUST include how the vehicle looks.

1.  I'm not arguing against anything that I listed, particularly not against safety requirements.  I listed them (and I've thought of many things left out) to illustrate the lack of "historic authenticity" (and against your argument that allowing a "modern" igntion would not be historically authentic.)
2.  You brought bodies into the discussion, but I went beyond the current arguement.
3.  Yes, for vintage engines which are not allowed EFI (and I know pretty much what Pete Richardson paid for his Hilborn mechanical FI - more than I could consider), Holley 500 (350?) CFM racing 2-barrels are modern, at least compared to Strombergs or Winfields.  (I use Strombergs, but I bought my collection when they were cheap  :mrgreen:)

By my understanding, there is little "historic authenticity" in the engine pictured in this thread.  Beyond the block and perhaps the timing cover, I see nothing that is historically authentic.  I doubt that you would find much more in a picture of either of Sunday's record setting V4F's.  By my definition, a brand-new in the box magneto from Joe Hunt is modern and not vintage or historic.  It is no more anachronistic to my eye than the DIS on the Dodge.

When I used the word "reliability", I was using it in a much narrower sense than normal.  A Ford V4 with the ignition driven off of the camshaft between two of the three bearings, will NOT fire correctly 100% of the time and the cam is flexing everytime it pushes a valve up, not to mention the inevitable slop in the 1920's design of the gears and the driveshaft.  Using a programmable box taking engine position directly from the crankshaft will fire correctly more reliably (closer to 100% of the time).  Cost compared to a new magneto is similar.  Oh!  and it will make a few more horsepower, won't it??

This thread was a request for clarification of the new for 2007 rules for vintage engines.  My inquiry was dropped shortly thereafter because there was no clear answer given.  After looking at pictures of record-setting cars (and I know that non-conforming cars have had approved records) I thought that the point was moot.  Apparently it is not.

However, when you and DW disagree, who gets the last vote?   :-D

Mike

Mike,

I hear what you're saying and you're right... we are using two different languages here.  I don't fully know how much you're involved with running a car or if you've even ran before or if you're building a car to run but I think you're seeing things like an outsider looking in and I'm seeing things like an insider looking out.  I speak SCTA rule book and those who speak SCTA rule book generally understand what I'm saying.  "Historical authenticity" is only applicable to the vintage engines running in the vintage engine class in vintage bodies.  You might not agree with my usage of "historical authenticity" but my usage is the same as the SCTA's usage and those are the rules I follow.  Personal conjecture has no bearing over the rules that govern the SCTA engine classes. 

Anecdotally, I once heard someone say that they didn't agree with the SCTA rules regarding firewalls in roadsters.  Well, in all truthfullness, their personal disposition on the matter has no bearing on anything.  They can not agree with the rules all they want but the rules are still the rules and they still have to follow them.

So, historical authenticity is only mentioned once in the rule book and where it's mentioned is in the vintage engine section, and the stipulation is that historical authenticity apply to vintage engines in vintage bodies.  It doesn't go any further than that.

Again, it seems like your personal definition of what's new and modern and not historical is very different from the SCTA's.  It breaks down like this: carbs are old and efi is new, mags and points distributors are old and computer controlled ignition systems are new, mechanical fuel injection is old and efi is new.  That's it.  It's pretty straight cut.  A Stromberg or a Holley or a Winfield are all the same thing.  A dual point distributor and a mag are the same thing.  Old stuff, new stuff.  When you start seeing things this way it all makes sense and things are very very clear. 

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Offline maguromic

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Re: Vintage Engines & new rules clarification??
« Reply #58 on: July 14, 2010, 07:52:04 PM »
Nathan, Then how do you classify traction control modules with the ignition?   They have a processor and are programmable with a computer for wheel slip and can control the ignition.  It is conceivable with some work someone can change it do a host of other things on the ignition side.  Just curious.  Tony
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Offline NathanStewart

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Re: Vintage Engines & new rules clarification??
« Reply #59 on: July 14, 2010, 07:52:40 PM »
Just to wrap this up for myself, I know what the intent of the rule was meant to be and I also know that no computers precludes computer controlled ignition systems.  If the rules need to be tightened up and made more obvious, we will submit a rule change to add more words to make it even more clear to everyone that computer controlled anything is ILLEGAL for use on vintage engines in vintage bodies.  In the mean time, protests can clear up anything that might be questionable.  
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