Author Topic: Sidecar Weight Minimum  (Read 8567 times)

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Offline Loose Goose-Terry#1

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Sidecar Weight Minimum
« on: December 15, 2006, 02:05:08 PM »
Back in the dark ages when I raced Loose Goose at B'ville the first time, I had to have a "dead weight" of (I think) 50 lbs.  :-( Then I think the rules were changed to something like the weight on the sidecar had to be enough to assure proper handling (or something like that) :-D . Anyway, I have another sidecar motorcycle about ready to go to B'ville and the weight on the sidecar tire is probably only about 25 lbs w/fairing installed. :lol:
NOW FOR THE QUESTION: Talking with Kenny Lyon, he said that I have to have 150 lbs of "dead weight" on the sidecar wheel.  :-o Is there a minimum/maximum weight that has to be on the sidecar wheel?  :? Will my sidecar streamliner (now in the design stage) have to have the 150 lbs weight on the tire 'to assure proper handling'? I don't have a current rule book. What does the new rule book say about siedcar weight? :?

Terry
If I had it all to do over again...I would!

Offline MattS

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Re: Sidecar Weight Minimum
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2006, 03:12:48 PM »
Back in the dark ages when I raced Loose Goose at B'ville the first time, I had to have a "dead weight" of (I think) 50 lbs.  :-( Then I think the rules were changed to something like the weight on the sidecar had to be enough to assure proper handling (or something like that) :-D . Anyway, I have another sidecar motorcycle about ready to go to B'ville and the weight on the sidecar tire is probably only about 25 lbs w/fairing installed. :lol:
NOW FOR THE QUESTION: Talking with Kenny Lyon, he said that I have to have 150 lbs of "dead weight" on the sidecar wheel.  :-o Is there a minimum/maximum weight that has to be on the sidecar wheel?  :? Will my sidecar streamliner (now in the design stage) have to have the 150 lbs weight on the tire 'to assure proper handling'? I don't have a current rule book. What does the new rule book say about siedcar weight? :?

Terry

Nope, no minimum weight required. They just want enough weight for the vehicle to be stable. They might make you put weight on it if they think it might want to "fly" too easily. I guess it will depend on the size & speed you intend to run.


Matt

Offline JackD

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Re: Sidecar Weight Minimum
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2006, 03:16:23 PM »
Some entrants are already flying the tag wheel when underway and that is part of the problem they are makng for themselves.
"I would rather lose going fast enough to win than win going slow enough to lose."
"That horrible smell is dirty feet being held to the fire"

bak189

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Re: Sidecar Weight Minimum
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2006, 12:46:51 AM »
It all depends which Bonneville event you plan to race..............the AMA/FIM,BUB event
requires that you either use a passenger or
carry 60kg (132lbs) of weight.
When SCTA/BNI did away with passengers in 1987, no rule was made regarding ballast,
SCTA/BNI have NEVER had a rule on required ballast......However, they do say if you feel ballast will help in the handling of the outfit.....you may do so. If they had a
weight rule in the books, some of the stupid sidecar records now in the book would have been a lot lower.  The only time I ever saw a sidecar on a 50c.c. or 125c.c. motorcycle, was on my last trip to China......and they were used as taxis.  Sidecars with SCTA/BNI were mounted on small bikes in order to get points at El Mirage.

Offline Loose Goose-Terry#1

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Re: Sidecar Weight Minimum
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2006, 01:35:30 AM »
Thanks for the info on the weight. I really do need to find a rule book newer than 2004!!

I will try to be one of the first in line to get a 2007 rule book like Don Warner suggested.

I thought that the rules said that the third wheel had to remain in contact with the salt and leave only two tracks the front & back motorcycle wheels and the second track from the sidecar wheel (otherwise it would be a trike or a bike) :| If you fly the third wheel, you are only eliminating the rolling resistance which is very little and you should be considered "out of control" :-o Wouldn't that be kind of like doing a wheelie down the salt on a bike?  :?

Who do I send design drawings of my streamliner to for review and hopefully approval ? :?
If I had it all to do over again...I would!

Offline JackD

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Re: Sidecar Weight Minimum
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2006, 02:01:07 AM »
When the passenger was required to be removed the rule said the rider must demonstrate they can be accommodated in the chair to guarantee a minimum size.
That kept the vehicle within the realm of a sidecar.
That rule was abandoned and the minimums set by a single person that was the immediate beneficiary of the self made change.
The SCTA board did not give it the attention it deserved and the rest is a very poor history that only got worse.
It has deteriorated into a points getter tag wheel farce and risks elimination altogether.
"I would rather lose going fast enough to win than win going slow enough to lose."
"That horrible smell is dirty feet being held to the fire"

Offline Loose Goose-Terry#1

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Re: Sidecar Weight Minimum
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2006, 11:48:44 PM »
:-D We're Back. It kind of P...es me off a little when I spend a half hour thinking about a response and then my computer blinks out and I loose everything.  :x Anyway, my own personal opinion (and we all know what opinions are like) sidecars should look like sidecars and be able to carry a passenger. Don't get me wrong, a passenger should not be permitted to ride in the sidecar when it is making a run, just demonstrate that it will hold the passenger. We could use one of the tech guys for the test fit. :evil: I hope that sidecar motorcycle racers will adhere to the spirit and intent of the class and not muddy things up by trying to stretch or change the rules just for records. The sidecar motorcycle is a hoot to drive/ride. I can only dream what the sidecar streamliner might be like at 200+  8-)
If I had it all to do over again...I would!

Offline Nortonist 592

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Re: Sidecar Weight Minimum
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2006, 12:32:28 AM »
The rule book states a minimum size 12"X 32" platform.  The rule was revised to state an orientation of those dimiensions due to abuse by some streamliners.  I have to admit I'm curious to know what a sidecar should look like.  Over the last century there have been a myriad of sidecar shapes and sizes.  The biggest sidecar body I ever saw was one that was built to carry a wife and five kids.  Most GP sidecars are nothing more than a platform.  Current GP sidecars give the passenger nothing more than a small area to squat on and a pole to hang on to.  I doubt a current GP sidecar would meet the SCTA requirements.    I don't believe sidecars should carry a passenger or ballast, unless ballast is needed for stability.  One of the class descriptions state that car must have originally been produced to carry four adults but that doesn't mean you have to carry four adults when making a run.
Get off the stove Grandad.  You're too old to be riding the range.

bak189

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Re: Sidecar Weight Minimum
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2006, 12:44:43 AM »
WHY ,OH, WHY.....no passenger, when making a run??????????
Without a passenger it is just a motorcycle
with a tag-wheel.  We have run, with and without a passenger.........if you use a person who has roadraced and understands that it is a lot more then just filling in the platform, they can be of much help in the handling of the outfit......certainly in the area of traction, due to the fact they can move their weight front to back.......sidecars run full-fairings and are effected at times by cross-winds.....again a passenger is very helpfull in keeping the outfit between the black lines/flags.  Even our streamliner was build
to run with a passenger.  (Elmo)

bak189

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Re: Sidecar Weight Minimum
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2006, 01:03:05 AM »
In all the above posts it has become quite
obvious to me that none of the people that are planning to landspeed race a sidecar......and/or built one, understand what a sidecar is all about..........so with this in mind it is also become quite obvious that I am wasting my time in trying to educate.
So have fun, and PLEASE don't hurt yourself or the sport 

Offline Nortonist 592

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Re: Sidecar Weight Minimum
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2006, 02:06:28 AM »
On the contrary.  I have ridden a sidecar on the road and passengered an outfit on a road course.  Admittedly only twice and  I am no John Robinson.  But I do know the value of a passenger when cornering, accelerating, and braking.   As John Robinson described his job; A variable center of gravity."  If you look at the current worms you wll see that passengers have very little room to move about.  They can't lay flat, getting out of the sidecar for corners is basically a nod of the head.  Getting over the rear wheel is still possible.  I watched a race in England last year where a passenger fell out (without injury) and the outfit continued on without any problems.  I got the feeling that current engineering has rendered a passenger (almost) unnecessary.  However, I am going to be running under the SCTA banner and no passengers are allowed.  They have their rules which I must abide by.  I am building my sidecar to their rules.  Or my interpretation of their rules.  Is it an outfit my Dad, who rodes sidecars for years, recognize?  Of course not.  But its built to run to SCTA rules.  My platform exceeds the dimensions required by the SCTA.  Unless the FIM have changed I seem to remember people running on FIM sidecar records with nothing more than a wheel on a stick.  Bob Burns with a Vincent "outfit in New Zealand sticks out as the prototypical wheel on a stick.  With ballast of course. 
Perhaps its the SCTA has no idea as to what constitiutes a sidecar.  You obviously have a great deal of LSR sidecar experience.  It would be a shame not to pass it on. 
Get off the stove Grandad.  You're too old to be riding the range.

dwarner

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Re: Sidecar Weight Minimum
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2006, 01:14:48 PM »
"Who do I send design drawings of my streamliner to for review and hopefully approval ?"

Terry,

I have passed your drawings on to Russ O'Daley, Tom Evans. Bob Moreland, Lee Kennedy, Alan Fogliadini and John Bjorkman. The men in this group should be able to provide gudience for your build.

DW

Offline John Noonan

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Re: Sidecar Weight Minimum
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2006, 02:37:58 PM »


Bob, you want to be the monkey hanging off or the monkey steering..?

I feel sidecars in a straight line to not need a "movable" center of gravity, when building a larger sidecar for a passenger that vehicle will no doubt have a larger profile making it more succeptable to a cross wind.  When a vehicle "bike" is starting to "move around the last thing I want is to have to try to take control from the other monkey... :lol:

John




Offline Loose Goose-Terry#1

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Re: Sidecar Weight Minimum
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2006, 03:26:05 AM »
Thanks Don.

 :-D Those were prelim drawings and I have revised some and detailed some with dimensions etc. Do you want me to send the revised drawings as I complete them or hold off 'till I talk to you guys about some of the changes and then send the actual build drawings (details & assemblies)? I don't want to bother everyone by piecemealing the drawings to the tech committee. Please let me know what the preferred method of drawing submittal is. :?

Thanks again.

Terry A. Hume
If I had it all to do over again...I would!

dwarner

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Re: Sidecar Weight Minimum
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2006, 09:10:12 AM »
Terry,

Go to the scta-bni.org website. Look up the contact list and contact those involved directly. No need to add me into a layer of communication when there are those that are able to provide direction.

Dan