Tube Bending

[Loose Goose-Terry#1]

Hi Guys,

I am in the design and parts gathering stage of building my Sidecar Streamliner. I would like to get some information on how to bend the hoop for my roll bar without kinking it. I am not sure what the tightest radius I can bend in 1.25 x 0.095 tube is. I have checked with muffler shops around here and they can't bend this small of a tube.

Can I buy pre-bent tube for the roll bars and then cut them to fit my requirements? Also, can I use standard Mechanical Mild Steel Tube for both the cockpit/roll bars AND frame or does it have to be DOM? The Mechanical Tube has a seam with weld extrudent that shows on the inside, will this be OK?

I'm just full of questions but after reading the message board for over 4 hours, you have provided me with answers to several of my questions.

Thought for today: "The more I learn, the more I question why, why not."

Race On!!!

Terry

[JackD]

First of all, what part of the country are you in ?

[Seldom Seen Slim]

Terry, there's your personal introduction to Jack -- he always cuts right to the chase, no beating around the bush with off-topic subjects that you can't quite figure out.

[JackD]

"Life is hard, it is harder if you don't know where you are."
Look at Slim in the snow.
At least I have "Fraction Control" on My sailboat that always knows where we are and where we are going.
 Now what does that tell you ?  LOL

As MK would say, "Mock not the afflicted."

[Loose Goose-Terry#1]

  Well Jack, I knew that if I didn't tell where I was, someone would ask. I am located southeast of Clinton Missouri in the rural area outside the small town of Tightwad (pop 63) on Truman Lake and near the Lake of the Ozarks. Its a long haul to the Salt from here. The first time we went was in '95 and we went every year up to and including the 50th Speedweek. What a rush
Anyway, I have another question. I need to send some preliminary drawings (the same ones I sent to JackD and DonW) to the motorcycle Tech Board (whom ever that may be now) I thought it was RussO, but I guess I didn't have a current e-mail address 'cause my e-mail came back
Any help for bending the tube and what material I can use?

Thanks
Terry A. Hume
ctracing@earthlink.net

[Dean Los Angeles]

You have found the drawback to building your own frame. The tubing size is dictated by the rule book, the bend radius is dictated by the die diameter that's sitting at the place that does tube bending. The muffler shops don't have small radius benders usually. It's time to hit the phones and start calling around. Check with your auto parts stores, motorcycle shops, kart shops, and ask who has tubing benders. Look under metal fabrication in the phone book. When they all mention Carl's Muffler shop, ask who else might do it. You really can't finish the design until you can guarantee the bend radius.
The Internet is a great source. Try Yahoo Maps.
http://maps.yahoo.com/ Type in your zip code. When the map is displayed look at the bottom right corner and click on the Yellow Pages link that says "Find more nearby . . ." Search for "tube bending". If it doesn't display much look for the link that says "Beyond zip code xxxxx". If that doesn't work try "metal fabrication", or "race car".
Lots of tube bending information
http://www.bendtooling.com/encyclopedia.htm
Want to build your own? They also list die sets. They also have notchers, rollers, and brakes.
http://www.pro-tools.com/index.html
I don't think you can find prebent tubing in 1 1/4, and you really want to bend the tubing to your design, not bend the design to your tubing. You can bend 1 1/4 down to 2 inch radius, so that's no a problem, it's just finding the place that has a radius you can live with. 4, 5, and 6" radius are the most common in 1 1/4.
The rulebook specifies 1 1/4 .095 wall, mechanical steel tubing, meaning not water pipe, gas pipe, or PVC. Welded or DOM is fine. What the inspectors are going to look for, as well as the specifications, is a well built roll cage that will protect you.
If you are looking for 4130 Chrome Moly tubing:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/mepages/4130tubing_un1.php
They have a wide selection and they will ship it to you.
While I was putting this together you posted that you are from . . . Tightwad? You gotta tell us about the name. Since this is a one-shot deal, you might as well check in Kansas City or Springfield. I tried Yahoo maps, nothing under tube bending, but there are several metal fabrication listings. If they don't have tube benders, they might know who does. Good luck!

[JackD]

Welded seam tubing is permitted but DOM is much stronger for the investment.
If you look at the results produced by the bender at the muffler shop you will notice the actual bend has a reduced diameter because the die crushes the material.
A proper tubing die for your application has a follower mandrell inside the tubing that is adjusted to maintain the constant diameter of the material.
An SFI certified or NASCAR chassis shop should have what you need.
Send the final dimensions to AUTOPOWER in San Diego and they can make it up and ship it to you. They make roll bars and cages everyday and ship them Worldwide.
The family is in the 3rd generation of Bonneville racers.
Ask for Rick  619-297-3300

[GeneF]

The Chassis Shop http://www.chassisshop.com/ offers prebent c/m rollcage tubing and kits for drag cars and looks like they do cu$tom bending also. And I believe drag car builder Jerry Bickel is somewhere in your area (St. Louis ?) Might be worth a phone call.

[Loose Goose-Terry#1]

  Thanks a lot Guys for the info and ph number. I'll give them a call.
Tightwad Missouri... very small town: one bank (The Tightwad Bank, UMB will close next month unless some other bank takes it over), one bar & grill, and one perpetual garage sale.

My company, CTR Safety & Environmental Mgt. Services is located about 3-miles from Tightwad (with a Clinton, MO address ) We would have a Tightwad address but Tightwad doesn't have a post office.

[Bob Drury]

Terry, make sure that whoever bends the tubing goes to the next thickness of tubing than required, that way the outside of the bend will be the proper thickness.  Jerry Bickel Race Cars is in Moscow Mills, Mo.  (636)356-2747.  Research the rule book and remember to allow plenty of height for your helmet.

[RICK]

Goose, I know Tightwad, I know Tubing, I know bending, and I know Jerry Bickle Race cars. I live in Elsberry MO, but my daughter lives just north of you in Garden City. JBRC is a 15 minute drive for me, would be a good 4 hour run for you. What i don't know is "streamliner sidecar?"
  Also, none of us here know {yet} what your skill and abilitys are.
   I have a 'JD Squared' bender, and my 1 1/4 die will bend a 3.5 radius. The bender is about $300, and the dies are almost as much. But the quality of bent is supurb. Jerry uses a Mittler Bros. bender, fast accurate bends, but cost 2 or 3 grand. Almost as important, is a notcher. Again Jerry uses a Mittler Bros. unit that is an end mill type, great for joining two diffrent sizes at off-center angles. If your only building one car/bike, I would suggest the 'Ol Joint Jigger' hole saw type.
 Tube? I like the DOM. Chrome moly doesn't make since in LSR. It MUST be Tig welded,needs to be heat treated after welding, has a shorter fatigue life, etc. I like the DOM over the ERW, cause it just seems cleaner and more consistant. It can be MIGed or TIGed, some guys even still ARC weld these things.
 If you're not a do-it-yourselfer, Kansas City is the farthest you should have to go to find a race/fab shop. In Peculiar is Pete and Jakes, the Slovers should be able to lead you to sombody close.
  Drawings and dementions are good, but templates, models,mock-ups are best. I run off the guys that tell me that want a piece of 1 5/8 2foot,then 30 degree bend, 9 inches,70 degree bend,4 inchs,bend down at a 45. Thats WACK!
  So, a streamliner/sidecar?  Do you ride in it or on it?

         Good Luck,    RICK

[Loose Goose-Terry#1]

  Thanks Bob and Rick,

I'm in Moscow Mills at least once a month doing work for a client. I'll check 'em out.
I've been building cars, boats, and bikes all my life and can't remember, but I think this is my 3rd life I'm on racing. I operate all the manual machine shop equipment since I owned a motorcycle & machine in St. Joseph, MO shop back in the 70's It was called H & H Enterprises, Competition Specialties. We built a lot of special application racing and performance equipment for bikes, Karts, and race cars. My dad has a machine shop in Easton, MO (up by St. Joseph, MO) and I do a lot of fabrication work on weekends. Equipment:Vertical Bridgeport, Horz. Van Norman, 10" & 14" SB Lathes, 12" Wide vertical & Horz. belt sander/planer, Drill Presses, Iron Worker, Tig, AC-DC Arc, Heli-Arc, Oxy/Ace Gas, Press, Vertical 1" belt sander, Chop Saws, Radial Arm Saw, Tabel Saw, Power Miter Saw and enough portable hand tools to outfit at least shops. But alass, no tubing bender! As for a tubing notcher, I will use the Bridgeport w/1.250 4-flute TIN coated End Mill (or if that doesn't work,  I'll just use the old grind and fit & rat-tail-file method )

[smitty2]

 Has anybody had any experience with those pre bent kits from Jegs, or Summit? It sure would save some time, but the shipping is almost as expensive as the kit.
 Terry... as for living in a place called Tightwad don't let it get you down... I grew up in a town called Seaside. People would actually ask me where that was! ( Uh... By the sea. ) We did have a High School though, but our mascot was.... You guessed it, a Seagull. Yea the "Fighting Seagulls" We really instilled fear into the hearts of our biggest rivals... "The Tillamook Cheese Makers"! The town I live in now is so small the greeting sign says "Thanks fer visitin".
  Smitty

[smitty2]

I guess I forgot to add that the Kits I was talking about were for the roll cages they sell. Sorry mind slipps at times...

Smitty

[bak189]

Boy, Oh Boy.....If you are planning to build a SIDECAR streamliner, you a far better man then I am........if you Plan to race SCTA/BNI
you best have the plans approved before you even start building......we ran a sidecar
streamliner back in the early 1990's (right Tom) rules put it in the Barber Museum.
Good luck