Author Topic: French flathead blocks -- Homologation or a new engine class?  (Read 22154 times)

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Offline av8ford

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French flathead blocks -- Homologation or a new engine class?
« on: December 05, 2006, 08:00:05 PM »
Several years ago XF (Ford-Mercury L-head V8 -- flathead) record holders were polled to see if the newly released flathead blocks from the French military should be allowed to run in XF classes. There is nothing architectually different or revolutionary from domestic blocks, although they benefit a little from evolved casting technology, '50s vs. '80s, and they are new which means they are not weakened from erosion of the water jacketing. It's really like going back in time to the '40s and '50s when new blocks could be purchased from Ford dealers.

Many of the record holders were in favor or homologating the French blocks if for no other reason than to keep expensive internal pieces from being destroyed when a tired, raced-out old block failed (as happened to our team in '98 when a cylinder collapsed and grenaded the motor and turned a lot of pricey and carefully prepped pieces to scrap metal).

In the meantime, the availability of French blocks became iffy in spite of what looked to be a good start. No matter the reasons, the intial marketers failed to deliver long term and the blocks and associated hardware -- which is considerble and includes complete engines as well -- reverted back to the original importer.

Fast forward to today when the entire inventory is finally in the hands of flathead-savvy folks, all the hardware gathered together, catalogued, and priced with incredible fairness and affordability. The inventory includes 300 new blocks, 150 complete engines, 200 sets of connecting rods, a couple hundred new crankshafts, timing gear sets, valves, springs, bearings, etc., etc. The point here is that flathead LSR racers have ready access to abundant and affordable new blocks and related hardware.



My question is: Should the new French blocks be homologated to run in existing XF-engine classes, or should a new engine class be added to the SCTA-BNI Rules & Records book? To many of us hard-core flatheaders it doesn't matter all that much, just so long as the block be allowed to run for records in a recognized engine class. Trust me when I say that French-block motors wouldn't suddenly shatter all the records set using domestic blocks; homolgation would amount to "business as usual." If the SCTA-BNI were to recognize French-block flatheads as a new engine class, perhaps designated FXF, however, there would be about 40 new open records up for grabs in popular vintage and traditional classes!

I'm hoping that it's just a matter of time -- and not much of it -- before the SCTA-BNI take one or the other courses as regards the French flathead blocks. In addition to the record motor we're building for our '53 Ford F-100 XF/PP (Production Pickup) for '07, we're building an identical French-block motor (3-3/8 x 4-1/8 -- 296 cid) to run after we've secured a new record or destroyed the record motor in the attempt. We're not expecting any significant performance differences between the two motors -- just looking forward to an exercise in hot-rod empiricsm.

So, what do you think?

Mike



Mike

Offline Dave Cox

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Re: French flathead blocks -- Homologation or a new engine class?
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2006, 08:03:12 PM »
a flathead is a flathead, let 'em run!

Offline Don Brent

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Re: French flathead blocks -- Homologation or a new engine class?
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2006, 08:34:51 PM »
I disagree and feel the vintage engine should be vintage not a new one (If 80s is new).  I have been racing flatheads at El Mirage and Bonneville for quite a few years now and while I ruin a block every so often there are aways a couple of extras laying around to start over with.  NO new classes and NO French blocks.  There is plenty of real vintage iron around and that is what the class was made for.
Don

Someday I have to give up on flatheads.

Offline desotoman

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Re: French flathead blocks -- Homologation or a new engine class?
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2006, 08:51:53 PM »
Sounds to me like you are trying to sell French Flathead motors and parts. :-)

SCTA does not need to make the French Block legal. There are still 8 jillion Flathead blocks around, and most Flathead guys have 10 or so really good ones put away. Most of the fast guys fill the blocks with Aluminum (better porting) and do not have to worry about internal rust. If there was a real shortage of good blocks that would be one thing but there is not.

I talked to Halibrand at the Sema show and he told me he did not have anymore French blocks. That his supply ran dry.

Your market is street rods, sell your blocks there. :-)

Tom G.
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Offline av8ford

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Re: French flathead blocks -- Homologation or a new engine class?
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2006, 10:41:12 PM »
I disagree and feel the vintage engine should be vintage not a new one (If 80s is new).  I have been racing flatheads at El Mirage and Bonneville for quite a few years now and while I ruin a block every so often there are aways a couple of extras laying around to start over with.  NO new classes and NO French blocks.  There is plenty of real vintage iron around and that is what the class was made for.

You must certainly have better resources than other flathead racers I know. Dave Tatom says he's lucky to find one block in ten that's worth building into a race motor. Vern Tardel finds a similar ratio.

What XF records do you hold that you've set and are defending? We've probably met.

Also, why do you object to a new engine class that would not be competing with your original flathead?

Just curious . . .

Mike
Mike

Offline Don Brent

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Re: French flathead blocks -- Homologation or a new engine class?
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2006, 12:21:14 AM »
I disagree and feel the vintage engine should be vintage not a new one (If 80s is new).  I have been racing flatheads at El Mirage and Bonneville for quite a few years now and while I ruin a block every so often there are aways a couple of extras laying around to start over with.  NO new classes and NO French blocks.  There is plenty of real vintage iron around and that is what the class was made for.

You must certainly have better resources than other flathead racers I know. Dave Tatom says he's lucky to find one block in ten that's worth building into a race motor. Vern Tardel finds a similar ratio.

What XF records do you hold that you've set and are defending? We've probably met.

Also, why do you object to a new engine class that would not be competing with your original flathead?

Just curious . . .

Mike

Hi Mike,

I don't hold any XF records but have running a unblown flathead modified roadster since the early 1990s, aways about ten miles off the record.  Got as close as 5 miles off a few years ago but decided for a change and cut the car in half and put the engine in the rear.  Plus I gave up on gas and switched to fuel at the same time.  Most of those unblown flathead modified roadster records are/were by motors built by Jim Stevens or Don Ferguson.  Yes, we may have met at Bonneville or El Mirage but not this year as I had some health issues and canceled out of Speedweek and only made a check out pass at the July meet.  (They let me run even though there were some tech issues with the new rear engine setup.)  If you had mentioned French flatheads I am sure you would have gotten a response from me.

As for the new classes...There are too many now!  So you are right I really do object.  Adding more will make the cars as bad as the bikes.  I spoke out against the rear engine modified roadster before it was added so this is not new concept for me.  (Once there was a class it seemed like I may as well make the change.) I really can't see any sense adding a a new engine class.  If you want to run a new French flathead then just enter it in 'D'.  You could use electronic fuel injection and even a turbo if you wanted.  The French flatheads aren't vintage engines. 

You are right it is harder and harder to find a real good flathead block and there is aways someone calling up wanting a perfect block but there are plenty of blocks around than can be built into real strong motors with maybe a few crack repairs, a sleeve or ?, and/or block filler.  They are not that hard to find and a good block is still cheaper than a French one so I don't see why this came up again.

Anyway, enough of my rant.  Go fast and be safe.  Don
Don

Someday I have to give up on flatheads.

Offline 836dstr

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Re: French flathead blocks -- Homologation or a new engine class?
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2006, 12:29:31 PM »
I agree with Don,

There are already too many classes. It's human nature to try to get some type of competitive advantage to be able to set a record. Not that a French Flathead would give such an avantage, but a new class with an open record would amount to the same thing.

Carrying this theme to an extreme, since manual transmissions have less parasitic horsepower loss than an automatic why not have a seperate class for automatics to eliminate the competitive disadvantage of running an automatic. Think of all the new classes we could have then.

Tom

dwarner

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Re: French flathead blocks -- Homologation or a new engine class?
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2006, 12:34:55 PM »
How about - red classes and blue classes!!!! They did it in the hey day of Midget Racing.

DW

Offline desotoman

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Re: French flathead blocks -- Homologation or a new engine class?
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2006, 01:33:23 PM »
Carrying this theme to an extreme, since manual transmissions have less parasitic horsepower loss than an automatic why not have a seperate class for automatics to eliminate the competitive disadvantage of running an automatic. Think of all the new classes we could have then.

Tom

I like this idea since I have two street roadsters and one has an auto and one a manual trans.  :-D

Tom G.

JUST KIDDING
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Offline Bob Drury

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Re: French flathead blocks -- Homologation or a new engine class?
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2006, 01:46:08 AM »
I assume then that you pureists are all running no aftermarket parts such as rods and cranks that are/were cast, forged or machined in any foreign country, including Canada? :-D :-D
Bob Drury

Offline Dean Los Angeles

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Re: French flathead blocks -- Homologation or a new engine class?
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2006, 02:42:05 AM »
The last flathead I ran had Briggs & Stratton on the side of it.
Since I don't know anything about it, where do you get a flathead engine and parts? I would assume a pretty limited supply since they haven't been made since forever.
Well, it used to be Los Angeles . . . 50 miles north of Fresno now.
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Offline desotoman

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Re: French flathead blocks -- Homologation or a new engine class?
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2006, 12:06:25 PM »
I assume then that you pureists are all running no aftermarket parts such as rods and cranks that are/were cast, forged or machined in any foreign country, including Canada? :-D :-D

Bob,
   I can only talk for myself. Back in 1980 when I first went to El Mirage and watched the races, I picked up a rule book and looked for easy classes in which to run. The Flathead class looked like an easy class. I started to collect Flathead motors and at the time you could find motors for $10-$25 complete. This was way before the internet made it easy to find parts.
 
   The reason for a vintage engine class is to see how much performance you can get out of a vintage motor. The last flathead motor ford built was to my knowledge 1953. Since the basic building block for a motor is the block itself, if you were to allow newer motors to run in the class it would no longer be a Vintage engine.

    Besides most guys have collected a lot of good blocks. I know I have about 20 blocks 59a and 8ba that took me many years to find, again pre internet. Now if you want a good block you will have to pay $500 and up, and to be quite honest most people are too cheap to pay that. Trust me there is no shortage of flathead blocks they made millions and millions of them from 1932-1953.

Tom G.

PS. My motor has all American parts, Crower crank, Ross pistons, Carrillo rods, Navarro heads and intake, 4-71 GMC blower, Howard cam, and Hilborn injector. The reason I shelved my project was I could not compete against the cubic dollars that Ron Main was spending on his Flathead at the time. I still have all my stuff and some day I will run it for fun, maybe in a street rod.
I love the USA. How much longer will we be a free nation?

Asking questions is one's only way of getting answers.

The rational person lets verified facts form or modify his opinion.  The ideologue ignores verified facts which don't fit his preconceived opinions.

Offline desotoman

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Re: French flathead blocks -- Homologation or a new engine class?
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2006, 12:10:01 PM »
The last flathead I ran had Briggs & Stratton on the side of it.
Since I don't know anything about it, where do you get a flathead engine and parts? I would assume a pretty limited supply since they haven't been made since forever.

Dean,
  Now with the internet there are several places to find parts. One big one is the Ford Barn. Do a google search for Ford Barn and you can find everthing for a ford you could ever imagine.

Tom G.
I love the USA. How much longer will we be a free nation?

Asking questions is one's only way of getting answers.

The rational person lets verified facts form or modify his opinion.  The ideologue ignores verified facts which don't fit his preconceived opinions.

Offline promachine

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Re: French flathead blocks -- Homologation or a new engine class?
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2006, 12:15:12 PM »
Funny, you can`t run a French Flattie in your vintage car, but you can have
traction control. Are the other new blocks being made right now gonna be legal?
Dirty 2 driver-nitro junkie-H.P. peddler

Offline JackD

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Re: French flathead blocks -- Homologation or a new engine class?
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2006, 01:04:47 PM »
Funny, you can`t run a French Flattie in your vintage car, but you can have
traction control. Are the other new blocks being made right now gonna be legal?

Don't get off subject and look through a problem.
You must stay behind it so as to continue bumping your head.
At least when you break an original used Ford block with 25k worth of special moving parts you can do it with honor.
What better way to show your appreciation to all those hard working volunteers than to allow them to keep a souvenir from all the parts they pick up.
Come on, be a sport.
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