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Will you use traction control

Yes
No
Maybe in future

Author Topic: Traction Control for 2007  (Read 15009 times)

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Offline jimmy six

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Re: Traction Control for 2007
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2006, 06:57:14 PM »
I will be fun to watch the first roadster running about 250 on some rough salt with one of the rear brakes trying to be applied. :-D It will be better after the 5th day when they have been exposed to the salt air.
First GMC 6 powered Fuel roadster over 200, with 2 red hats. Pit crew for Patrick Tone's Super Stock #49 Camaro

Offline Bob Drury

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Re: Traction Control for 2007
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2006, 07:01:21 PM »
The way I see it, the two main benificiaries of traction control will be the high horsepower streamliners/lakesters, and the twin or large turbocharged cars.  I believe the former need this feature if for no other reason than to save precious tires.  On the turbo cars, it may provide a few less thrills when full boost kicks in, although with the newer computer management systems this may not be as big a deal.  With the heavier coupe/sedan bodies, and or the lighter roadsters, I am not convinced that there will be much of a benefit.  Most of us are already beyond trouble before we lose traction. :wink: :wink:
Bob Drury

JohnR

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Re: Traction Control for 2007
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2006, 07:29:39 PM »
The way I see it, the two main benificiaries of traction control will be the high horsepower streamliners/lakesters, and the twin or large turbocharged cars.  I believe the former need this feature if for no other reason than to save precious tires.  On the turbo cars, it may provide a few less thrills when full boost kicks in, although with the newer computer management systems this may not be as big a deal.  With the heavier coupe/sedan bodies, and or the lighter roadsters, I am not convinced that there will be much of a benefit.  Most of us are already beyond trouble before we lose traction. :wink: :wink:

Hey Bob,

I dont think it will be much help on the turbocharged cars.

The ignition retard method does not reduce the amount of energy in the exhaust stream, it actually increases it. This causes the turbo speed to increase dramatically and the boost to rise right along with it. This is because the exhaust is not expanding in the cylinder, it's doing it in the exhaust just upstream of the turbine.

Fuel cut is really messy as there is almost always a few cylinder events before/after the cut one that the combustion is tweaked and there is popping. This also causes the boost to spike up. It's very hard to tune when it's doing this and under/over correction by the system is the order of the day.

The ignition cut method is the worst of all on a turbo car since the raw fuel is sent into the exhaust stream where it ignites. This method in conjunction with the timing retard is actually used to build boost in drag cars. Exactly the opposite of what you are trying to achieve.

These principles are very clearly demonstrated when at full boost and WOT and you hit a soft rev limiter. The first thing you will see is a nasty boost spike. A soft rev limiter and traction control are typically implemented in a very similar matter.

The auto throttle system is "safe" in the sense that at least it achieves what you are trying to achieve but the boost level will fall off pretty fast so if you have a big turbo then it throws you into lag. An alternate type would put a throttle in front of the turbo allowing the turbo to spin in a vacuum and be ready for work at an instant. This was used by Cosworth and Honda with the indycars in the late 90's. However, it was not used as a TC system. It was only setup to help initial lag when the engine was "breathed" on a superspeedway or a full closed throttle on a road course. In both cases the energy in the exhaust stream was also removed. If it is not then the turbo will dramatically overspeed and when the compressor throttle (vanes or shutter valve) is opened then bad stuff happens!

The selective braking would again be a possibility but in practice I will most always discount it. There is NO commonly available, programmable system like this available. Even if it were, you need brakes comparable to the power you are trying to reduce. On a Taurus with an anemic 4 banger, thats easy. On a real race motor you are talking huge rotors and multi-pistion calipers. It's just not practical.

I see the TC systems finding a niche on medium to high horsepower normally aspirated cars running primarily at El Mirage. I am sure others will try it but I don't see them having much success but I wish them all the best.

A modern boost control system usually sets the target boost level based on your current vehicle speed, gear and/or RPM. It works very, very well (IMO). The best way to control your traction is to not lose it in the first place. That's the type system I use now and will continue to use.

Regards,

John
« Last Edit: December 03, 2006, 07:40:14 PM by JohnR »

Offline Dynoroom

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Re: Traction Control for 2007
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2006, 08:11:22 PM »
I'm so glad they made traction control legal. It'll keep our competitors busy for a few years finding out it won't do them any good as we continue to set more records.  :-o   I sure did't need it in ANY turbo cars I've ever run engines in, be it coupe, GT, lakester, mod roadster, or even that dang 4 wheel drive roadster.
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Offline POPS

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Re: Traction Control for 2007
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2006, 09:22:01 PM »
Gents,
Traction control will eventually be a standard item for any high powered car. All one has to do is put a brake rotor on the pinon shaft.  This scheme was used by
several people in the 80's at the drags like Austin Coil and Dale Armstrong. They just added another caliper to one of the brake rotors on the axle, (the
extra brake caliper is now illegal).  This of course wasn't a true TC because the pnuematic caliper pressure was a timed release.  For a true TC all one needs is front and rear wheel speed sensors, microprocessor. and pnuematic brake caliper and a pinion rotor.  A real simple system in my estimation. 

An easier scheme would be to retard the ignition to reduce power for tire spin.
One of the earler posts isn't accurate because you can and we do retard blowen nitro drag cars.  All blowen nitro drag cars are retarded in the
the first second to kill shake.  Retarding them 30 degrees is not uncommon
which is the maximum the MSD will allow.  An enhancement would be to use the retard in conjunction with a centrifical clutch.  Small rpm changes make big changes in plate load because the plate load changes by the square of the rpm change.

Regards,
POPS

 

 

JohnR

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Re: Traction Control for 2007
« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2006, 09:37:28 PM »
Retarding them 30 degrees is not uncommon

Pops, I wasn't saying retarding them 30 degrees total, I was saying retard them to 30 degrees ATDC. Do that for 5 seconds straight and things start going boom!

Otherwise, you are right on!
« Last Edit: December 03, 2006, 09:39:16 PM by JohnR »

landracing

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Re: Traction Control for 2007
« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2006, 12:38:59 AM »
Personally I wouldn't use any type of traction control to apply wheel brake.

Totally engine management systems. Alot of talk about MSD. There are better controllers around then MSD to take on task.

I will have a system on a bike. Detail later. And there are very informative people around who do it on a daily basis... Explore the options...

Im more excited about the fact its one less thing you CANT do. Gives some more "innovation" to the racer.

Like Dyno says, lets people mess around with it while he sets records. Fine, just maybe there will be a sleeper out there that will suprise him.... I know of one... Maybe it will fall on its face too... Well with a click of a button he can change it. Im excited.

Jon
 

Offline hawkwind

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Re: Traction Control for 2007
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2006, 02:33:30 AM »
2 well known literary sound bites come to mind re traction controll 
much ado about nothing  and bah humbug ,IMHO it will work very well in slowing you down
slower than most

Offline RidgeRunner

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Re: Traction Control for 2007
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2006, 08:22:07 AM »
     TC debate.  Kinda reminds me of the going to full cages debate when they went to them on midgets and sprints.  Drivers got instantly braver, probabley helped the young guns a little more.  They could get in only worrying about getting the bell rung as opposed to serious sheet time or not making another race if they took too great a shot at makeing something happen.  Vets remembered what COULD happen.  Changed racing for sure, but in big picture things evened out with more remaining to enjoy and be able to remember the sport.  Just part of progress.

Offline JackD

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Re: Traction Control for 2007
« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2006, 08:41:02 AM »
     TC debate.  Kinda reminds me of the going to full cages debate when they went to them on midgets and sprints.  Drivers got instantly braver, probabley helped the young guns a little more.  They could get in only worrying about getting the bell rung as opposed to serious sheet time or not making another race if they took too great a shot at making something happen.  Vets remembered what COULD happen.  Changed racing for sure, but in big picture things evened out with more remaining to enjoy and be able to remember the sport.  Just part of progress.

Bob McCoy was a nationally ranked Sprint driver and he paid the double entry fee penalty for a whole season after the cage rule was implemented until it was mandatory.
Rodger Ward (RIP) was another I  knew as a kid and he felt the same way.
While they were sorta "Tradition unhampered by progress".
 They and many others felt the cages allowed any farmer with the money to race.
Time marches on and while they were certainly skilled gentleman drivers, those days were in the past.
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Offline Sumner

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Re: Traction Control for 2007
« Reply #25 on: December 04, 2006, 11:02:48 AM »
     TC debate.  Kinda reminds me of the going to full cages debate when they went to them on midgets and sprints.  Drivers got instantly braver, probabley helped the young guns a little more.  They could get in only worrying about getting the bell rung as opposed to serious sheet time or not making another race if they took too great a shot at makeing something happen.  Vets remembered what COULD happen.  Changed racing for sure, but in big picture things evened out with more remaining to enjoy and be able to remember the sport.  Just part of progress.

Reminds me of when I raced bikes and went from an open face helmet to a closed helmet.  My speeds went up and I felt more secure.  Probably a false sense of security :wink:.

c ya,

Sum

Offline promachine

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Re: Traction Control for 2007
« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2006, 02:45:27 PM »
Gee can I just put a big wing on my fuel roadster now and call it t.c.?
I guess you can reset all the fuel roadster records at El Mirage back to
minimums now, cuz if anybody can hook up 2000 hp all the way out the
back door all the records will fall along with all the time and effort it took
to set them.The people that voted for T.C. just pissed all over some of
the great drivers that got down the track without it.
These cars are supposed to be hot rods, not computer controlled toys.


                       I am not happy   :-(
Dirty 2 driver-nitro junkie-H.P. peddler

Offline Bob Drury

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Re: Traction Control for 2007
« Reply #27 on: December 05, 2006, 03:10:35 PM »
Ask Chauvin Emmons...................
Bob Drury

Offline desotoman

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Re: Traction Control for 2007
« Reply #28 on: December 05, 2006, 03:12:26 PM »
Gee can I just put a big wing on my fuel roadster now and call it t.c.?
I guess you can reset all the fuel roadster records at El Mirage back to
minimums now, cuz if anybody can hook up 2000 hp all the way out the
back door all the records will fall along with all the time and effort it took
to set them.The people that voted for T.C. just pissed all over some of
the great drivers that got down the track without it.
These cars are supposed to be hot rods, not computer controlled toys.


                       I am not happy   :-(

Me too.  :-(
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Offline JackD

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Re: Traction Control for 2007
« Reply #29 on: December 05, 2006, 03:16:17 PM »
Gee, my 2 mottos seem to work better every day.

I think I am going to keep them. :wink:
"I would rather lose going fast enough to win than win going slow enough to lose."
"That horrible smell is dirty feet being held to the fire"