Author Topic: Nitro and P/P  (Read 9796 times)

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Offline Dean Los Angeles

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Re: Nitro and P/P
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2006, 12:07:59 AM »
1) Can you corrolate BTU's to horsepower?
Relating heat to horsepower requires resolving all of the variables; compression ratio, valve timing, ignition timing, etc. Brake Mean Effective Pressure (BMEP) is another very effective yardstick for comparing the performance of one engine to another. Comparing a 300 cubic inch engine to a 400 inch engine is difficult. Using BMEP allows you to compare how much pressure is being developed. The definition of BMEP is:  the average (mean) pressure which, if imposed on the pistons uniformly from the top to the bottom of each power stroke, would produce the measured (brake) power output. The absolute answer is that until you put it on the dyno, you don't know, and until you take it down the course in real race conditions, you'll never figure it out.

2) How much more horsepower does nitrous oxide add to an engine when it is being sprayed?
Horsepower is the answer we are most familiar with, but unless you have dyno readings for a particular setup it is mostly advertising. Nitrous is frequently advertised as "75 horsepower" when what they really mean is there is the possible, maybe, kinda sorta, if you play your cards right possiblity of having that kind of power increase. Since most of their customers don't have access to a dyno, no one really knows if that is close or not. Unless you match the fuel to get the correct ratio you can't get maximum effiency. The difficulty lies in figuring out where on earth to start. The seat-of-the-pants method is to always start on the rich side and work back to the correct ratio, determined by checking the plug color. If you have a mass air flow sensor your life gets a little easier, but this is why the guys with little experience have it so hard. "I really want maximum horsepower, but don't want to blow it up."

3) In aviation we suck on 100% oyxgen when up on altitudes. Would setting up a 100% oxygen bottle to your bike make any difference to mixture power if pure O2 was released into air intake just before the "big mile"?
It sure would, if you could keep it from torching a hole in the piston. Nitrous oxide has the advantage of releasing oxygen in the heat of combustion, where pure O2 produces lots of heat NOW. Not that it couldn't be used, but control is difficult. O2 is easily available in compressed form, not liquid. Nitrous is a liquid, and the difference is the amount of power you can put in a compressed bottle.

4) From your write-up it appears there are only a handful of people in each state that know about and that can safely work with nitromethane.  Can I assume that to be correct?
Only from the stand point that not that many people ever run nitromethane. Most racing is gasoline oriented. Drag racing and land speed racing are the two biggest forms of racing that use it. RC cars run 20% nitromethane all the time.

5) Can I also assume that once you set up your bike for nitro-- you can just about forget riding it around town?
You haven't priced nitromethane, have you? :evil: At $40-50 a gallon, and using 5 times as much . . .

Did I say something about the smell of nitrous oxide? I didn't think I did. Nitromethane on the other hand . . well I'm addicted to the smell. It's no doubt poison, but when you smell a top fuel engine light off . . . AHHHHHHH.
I worked with a fuel genius in the late 60's. Have you ever tried oil of wintergreen? The smell when burned is pretty exotic. Makes a good buffer for methanol/nitromethane too.
Should we discuss hydrazine? Also was popular in the late 60's. Still popular as rocket fuel. With nitromethane it produced tons of power. If you let it sit for a few days it went from a pretty decent fuel to a Class A explosive. I wonder why they banned it????
« Last Edit: December 03, 2006, 12:13:54 AM by Dean Los Angeles »
Well, it used to be Los Angeles . . . 50 miles north of Fresno now.
Just remember . . . It isn't life or death.
It's bigger than life or death! It's RACING.

Offline Flyboy

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Re: Nitro and P/P
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2006, 12:40:14 AM »
Dean and others... thanks for your input.

Three more questions:

1) When an motorcycle engine is rebuilt is it true that you must have special pistons to handle the nitrous so they won't melt?

2) Can you spray nitrous on fuel? Wouldn't you get more power than spraying gasoline?

3) The C numbers on the cans. At BUB I saw mostly C19 or C16? on the cans of fuel. I personally brought C12 as recommended by a dragster. What does the numbers represent? And how does one determine which fuel is best for their engine? Thanks.

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Offline Dean Los Angeles

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Re: Nitro and P/P
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2006, 02:38:50 AM »
Quote
1) When an motorcycle engine is rebuilt is it true that you must have special pistons to handle the nitrous so they won't melt?
Depends on what the stock piston is made of. Cast pistons aren't as good as forged pistons. One of the fastest guys on the planet, John Noonan works for JE Pistons. Use his stuff. "Won't melt" is a dream come true. The truth is that aluminum melts at 1200 F (depending on alloy). You can melt any piston. The more fuel, nitrous, compression, boost, rpm you add to the mix puts more stress on the piston. It only has to last 5 feet past the finish line.

Quote
2) Can you spray nitrous on fuel? Wouldn't you get more power than spraying gasoline?
Nitrous oxide adds more oxygen to the mix, doesn't care what it gets sprayed on. SCTA doesn't allow nitrous with gasoline. SCTA rules class nitrous as a fuel.

Quote
3) The C numbers on the cans. At BUB I saw mostly C19 or C16? on the cans of fuel. I personally brought C12 as recommended by a dragster. What does the numbers represent? And how does one determine which fuel is best for their engine? Thanks.
VP Racing Fuels:
http://www.vpracingfuels.com/vp_01_fuels.html
C16
Used in turbocharged engines, blown engines and nitrous applications with CRs up to 17:1. Recommended by the top nitrous oxide companies. Spec Fuel for NHRA Comp Eliminator.
? Color: Blue
? Motor Octane: 117
? Specific gravity: .735 at 60? F

C19
Used in high RPM, normally aspirated drag race applications with CRs up to 17:1. Spec fuel for NHRA Comp Eliminator classes.
? Color: Yellow
? Motor Octane: 116
? Specific Gravity: .695 at 60? F

C12
The best all around racing fuel made. Recommended for CRs below 15:1, satisfying the needs of 75% of today's race engines. One of the winningest fuels in racing history, including Modified Tour, GNN, D.I.R.T., Indy Lights, NHRA, AMA as well as other local and national championships across the U.S. and around the world.
? Color: Green
? Motor Octane: 108
? Specific gravity: .717 at 60? F

Check out their web site, it lists tons of different blends. The designation doesn't mean anything. Which one is right for your application? Gooooood question. Higher octane numbers allow higher compression without detonation. Color and specific gravity don't tell you anything.

ERC Racing Fuel is the supplier for speedweek.
http://www.ercracingfuels.com/default.htm
Their web site gives more information, including BTU's. More BTU's more heat, more heat more power.

Check here for the chemical properties of just about everything combustible in an engine.
http://www.me.mtu.edu/~slpost/CLASS/hcprop.html
You may notice gasoline isn't listed. Gasoline is a blend of hydrocarbons from several of the base stocks listed on that page. If you buy gasoline for your car from the same gas station every time, you probably don't get the same blend everytime. Which fuels won't pass the SCTA requirement of 2.025 Dielectric Constant as read by the SCTA fuel check meter? I don't think anybody knows.
Also, gasoline is pretty much like buying a bike. Everybody has their opinion as to what works best. Me, I would just run what the record holder uses!
Well, it used to be Los Angeles . . . 50 miles north of Fresno now.
Just remember . . . It isn't life or death.
It's bigger than life or death! It's RACING.

Offline JackD

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Re: The Gospel according to Dean
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2006, 04:16:03 AM »
"You can't spray Nitrous on gas."
I know what you meant to say but what you did say was a funny.
You may try again.  LOL
"I would rather lose going fast enough to win than win going slow enough to lose."
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Offline Flyboy

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Re: Nitro and P/P
« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2006, 01:10:58 AM »
Dean,

What do you do for a living? Work for JPL? I hope you're teaching young ones. This country needs more educated people like you.
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Offline russ jensen

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Re: Nitro and P/P
« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2006, 11:11:53 PM »
. No you can't do it, it does not work period. All heat and nothing to expand just melts things.
[/quote]not quite true. in 5o's barny navarow  was injecting pure o2 in his flathead ford, he did melt a lot of pistons, and found it real hard to regulate,hence laughing gas much easier, with todays tec maybe o2 could be feasible???
speed is expensive-how fast do you want to go?-to soon old & to late smart.

Offline SPARKY

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« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2006, 08:55:15 AM »
I have been wondering ---with todays faster chip ECUs  on a system that has a fast O2 sensor system it "might" just be possible to introduce enough O2 upstream to "knock" the D alt.  back toward sea level, and below lol. As more gas engines begin to use muiltble pulse direct injection like diesels do now--- I will bet that we find we can do lots of things we couldn't in the past..
Miss LIBERTY,  changing T.K.I.  to noise, dust, rust, BLUE HATS & hopefully not scrap!!

"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing."   Helen Keller

We are going to explore the racing N words NITROUS & NITRO!

blastertech70

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Re: Nitro and P/P
« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2007, 03:06:54 PM »
Aswracing - I take it that you carburate nitro, would be interested to know what % you run and some details about your fuel system.

I run a " mud drag truck" with a 532ci Enderle top hat injection and run 33% load of nitro. I wanted an alternative to using a 500 shot of nitrous like most the other competitors. I work as a crew member on several friends NHRA nostalgic T/A dragsters.




Offline russ jensen

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Re: Nitro and P/P
« Reply #23 on: January 08, 2007, 09:30:16 PM »
Aswracing - I take it that you carburate nitro, would be interested to know what % you run and some details about your fuel system.



for carb- 850 holly dbl pump-- enlarge all psgs: including discharge tubes -big steel needle& seat- open up jets poeportional to % nitro - big fuel pump & lines from tank to carb- one street 340 plymouth ran 25 % load with this setup- { oh ya colder plugs-- carful here} stock car stayed @ 5 % load due to cost .mini rod stayed @ 10 % as about all heads {215 buick} could take w/ 30 lb boost,1 puller trk got by w 30% load : but short run time so no heat problems- think he was a bit ritch as starter had tears in his eyes & don't think it was cus he was happy or sad.  To get nitro to mix w/ gas requires toluene or zylene as a blending agent- bonus- they are octane bosters.                                                     
« Last Edit: January 09, 2007, 12:22:08 AM by russ jensen »
speed is expensive-how fast do you want to go?-to soon old & to late smart.