Ford 337 Flathead, XXO, right???

[dw230]

I am so glad that we all work together to ensure the competition is on a level playing field and police ourselves to
help the SCTA to ensure that the rules are followed.

DW

[RichFox]

I wonder how many head studs a 337 has? Maybe they should have limited the class to 21 and 24 stud engines/ Or what seemed more fair to me at the time. Any flathead under 325 CID.  The Cads seem to do OK in XO. Dozier's Chrysler straight eight did good. But I don't remember any Lincolns doing anything. The S&H roadster I understand was disappointing.

[Stan Back]

"I am so glad that we all work together to ensure the competition is on a level playing field and police ourselves to help the SCTA to ensure that the rules are followed."

I'd guess that you would now agree that adding words or phrases to a rule would not lead to having a level playing field.  Kinda limits the discussion when that happens, right?

[panic]

I know very little about the XF etc. classes, but IIRC it was created to permit the large number of Ford/Mercury engines to fight among themselves without being overwhelmed by other brands, sizes, and types. It was never a "level playing field" because it consisted of a single design and narrow displacement range. Sort of like "only Gen-2 hemi engines are legal for NHRA top fuel"..."
It appeared to have worked well for how many decades?
Are any records currently held by other-than-F/M?
If not, why not re-parse it to even more obvious: F/M only.

I think there might be interest in an XO/XXO class with lower displacement limits, there are many engines that are simply too small to be competitive at 325" but were modified back in the day, such as the Pontiac L6 SV 239, small Buick L8, Chevy Gen-2 L6, Chrysler 25" L6, Studebaker L6. Many of these could be easily swapped into existing XO chassis due to smaller package and make the car dual-use.
Wouldn't anyone like to see a Rajo Chevy L6 go fast (no chance in XX0 due to its 280" maximum in a 375" class)?

[Stainless1]

Wouldn't we call those DAIR or EAIR.... Oh sorry, DIA or EIA... don't have to be in a roaster.... Think of all the new competitors we could get...
  

[graham-34]

Hey another question.  I think I know the answer but I want to just verify.  The 325 CID limit on XO is "as raced" and not "as produced", right?  Someone could sleeve a Ford/Lincoln 337 so it is under 325 and run in XO, right?  Likewise, they could add a specialty head to the sleeved XO Ford/Lincoln 337 (under 325 CID) and run in the XXO class, right?  We all know there are soooo many aftermarket overhead heads available for the 337!  Not saying anyone would ever want to do this, but I just want to make sure I understand the rules.

[desotoman]

Graham-34,

Reading the wording in the current rule book I would say yes to all of your questions. But I am not an official in the SCTA. One thing the current rule book does say is no Ford or Mercury flathead V-8's in the XO class, so you would want to run it as a lincoln motor. Hope I am not confusing you.

I would love to see someone do it. I was going to do it on the cheap side so I was going to sleeve the block to 3 7/16 as I remember, and I had boxed rods etc.  But to really do it right you should bore the heck out of that block and run a destroked crankshaft. Journal size on those motors are way to big IMO and there is HP to be gained. The stock crankshafts were Forged so you could weld it up. By boring it you bring the valves closer to the bore and eliminate some transfer area. Anyway just some thoughts.

Good luck,

Tom G.

[desotoman]

I am so glad that we all work together to ensure the competition is on a level playing field and police ourselves to
help the SCTA to ensure that the rules are followed.

DW

I think it is human nature to push the limits, although I don't think that is an excuse for cheating. Sometimes you can talk to the person and tell them what they want to do is not legal for the class, but they think they know better and will not change their minds, and they always have some kind of excuse for what they are doing.  So what do you do then? Turn them in? Walk away? Keep your mouth shut? You are dammed if you do and dammed if you don't.

Tom G.

[jimmy six]

Rex. Your 420" 1929 Duesy is over the 375" vintage limit and will run heads up in "B"

[Beef Stew]

Once upon a time you could buy new flathead blocks from a Ford/Mercury dealer. 1948 blocks were still available even after the introduction of the 1949 Ford/Mercury.

If you bored a new block almost into the water-jacket, then pushed-in steel sleeves (from LA Sleeve) you then had a big-bore 24 stud block. Harold Daigh (Chuck's older brother) raced one in the early 1950s. I have no idea how many other people did this, but it was common knowledge back then. You could also buy unfinished cranks from Ford. These cranks could then be machined into full half stroker cranks. This is how you built a 325 inch flathead then.

Today you can over-bore a French block and buy a new half stroker crank (available from SCAT). This easy-to-build all-new-parts 325 CID flathead would be for-street-use-only. For racing with SCTA, you'll need to pay a small fortunes for a NOS Ford block (if you can find one).

There have been many rule changes over the years. In the late 1950s 275 CID overheads ran in the same classes as the few remaining flatheads. SCTA's Production classes never were stock classes, like at the drags. The small engine Production class had 1949 296 V-8 Fords racing against 1953 239 V-8 Studebakers. Chevy 261 truck engines, with 3 carbs, also ran in Production bodies.

The X Classes came along in 1966. The world was a lot simpler then. If you said Flathead, you meant Ford/Mercury V-8 only. If you were talking about a Cadillac Flathead, you said Cad-Flathead.

[desotoman]

Today you can over-bore a French block and buy a new half stroker crank (available from SCAT). This easy-to-build all-new-parts 325 CID flathead would be for-street-use-only. For racing with SCTA, you'll need to pay a small fortunes for a NOS Ford block (if you can find one).

I personally am happy the SCTA has not allowed the French block to participate in the XF class. What is so vintage about a block that was improved and made into the 1980's.

When one decides to participate in a vintage engine class it comes with specific rules and one has to decide if the rules might be to specific for their tastes or wallet. I don't personally buy the BS of there are not enough good Ford Flathead blocks out there. IMO there are plenty, and if you don't mind paying 500 for a good block you will find one. Building a vintage motor is not for the person on a budget.

Part of the challenge of building a vintage motor is it's age. I had a friend who would fill the block with aluminum, and it worked fine for him. Another friend ran a 352 inch Flathead at the drags back in the 70's, and he told me it was good for 10 passes, then it was time for another block as it was junk, but that did not stop him from building another motor for his car. 

As I remember when they made the XF rules there was discussion on what the cubic inch limit should be set at. Some thought they should limit the class to 300 inches since most Hot Rod motors back in the old days were 3/8 x 3/8 or 296 inch. But some competitors already were running 324 inch motors so the limit was set at 325 cubic inches.

Tom G.

[RichFox]

And the GMCs were mostly 320 inches.

[panic]

This was before the great awakening (1975?) when all of those oil consumption, blowby, seizure, strange skirt wear patterns, short ring life, overheating, blue smoke, and low power problems were attributed to "I bored it 3/16", like always".
BJ said 45 years ago that a SBC factory 350 block must be bored .030" to remove the ring chamfer, but anything over .040" was only "as necessary", and .060" was the end of its race life. At that point, making a 301 out of a 283 was regular business.

[Stan Back]

I agree with DeSotoMan about the cost of vintage engines.  Even if you could find a decent V-8 block for $500 (doubeful), how much are you going to spend on making some horsepower out of it.  V4 class is another example -- those overhead conversions aren't cheap -- and when you make decent horsepower with the 4s or flatheads, how long do they last.  Adding horsepower to vintage engines almost always ends in failure.  So, then, you've gotta be real smart or real lucky to make one last.  (You guys oughta look to RonnieRoadster for some clues.)

And then there's the Compressed Air Class which is now, I'm told, running up the prices on the qualified Chevy big and little pieces.  And, beating a dead horse, they're the only ones that are competitive -- just what the class was designed to do -- make more Chevys eligible.

[ronnieroadster]

Seems this has taken a bit of a curve away from the Ford/Lincoln 337 original post. Its been my experience as one of the guys still running the Ford Flathead block in the not so easy world of Land Speed Racing the only way to get a block to survive is to experiment.  In my case 7 painful years of damaging blocks along the way until you come up with what will actually work for more than a few runs.
   The Flathead engine I ran My rookie year is 2016 at Speedweek setting the 192 MPH record on gas is still used as my backup engine  at Speedweek.  I originally built her way back in 2014 ran and tested for lots of runway records back then so theres a lot of miles on the old girl for sure.  I know what it takes to be legal including the car and the amount of hours my son and I spend machining and building all of our engines in the true back yard hot rod spirit.  Heck i still use the stock original exhaust location designed by Ford three ports per side i have felt if theres a true vintage idea to the class why allow so much modifications to the block.  Relocating the exhaust to the top of the block to gain four ports per side as well as relocating the original intake port locations is certainly not a vintage or stock block the way I see it.  Some food for thought from the world of things flat.
 Ronnieroadster