Author Topic: Ford 337 Flathead, XXO, right???  (Read 14854 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline graham-34

  • New folks
  • Posts: 13
Ford 337 Flathead, XXO, right???
« on: September 27, 2019, 09:18:57 AM »
So the rulebook is very clear, a 337 Lincoln flathead would be in the XXO class because it is over 325 cubic inches.  I really think the same 337 Ford flathead from a F-7/F-8 truck would also be in the XXO class and I think that is the intent of the rulebook.  However, you parse exactly what the rulebook says, technically the 337 Ford truck flathead is not allowed in any of the vintage classes.  It is clearly not allowed in the XF and XXF classes because it is not a passenger car engine.  The XO class says "flathead V-8 (except Ford & Mercury)". The XXO class says "Non-Ford & Mercury flathead V-8s".  I don't think anyone can argue with this point, literally, that means no Fords or Mercurys (even truck engines).

 It is my assumption that the intent of the XO and XXO classes is except Ford & Mercury passenger car engines.  Am I correct, a 337 Ford truck flathead can run in the XXO class, right?

I would like to give a sincere thanks everyone that volunteers their time to work on the rulebook.  You do a great job and none of us would be racing without your work.   I read posts where people complain about the rulebook when they could offer suggestions to make it better.  If the intent is to allow 337 Ford truck motors in XXO, I would suggest changing the paragraph where it talks about the 325 - 375 CID engines without specialty heads to say Non-Ford & Mercury flathead passenger car V-8s.  Thanks again for all that you do!

Offline RichFox

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2663
Re: Ford 337 Flathead, XXO, right???
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2019, 10:47:07 AM »
You are right. The 337 engine is considered a Lincoln engine no matter if it came in a truck or not, And it's over 325 cid so it's XX. Never seen a fast one.

Offline Rex Schimmer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2633
  • Only time and money prevent completion!
Re: Ford 337 Flathead, XXO, right???
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2019, 01:12:09 PM »
Just reviewed the XXO class requirements and it looks like my plan for a 1929 Duesenberg 420 cu. in, 4 valve, double over head cam emgine in one of the vintage classes is not possible. The Duese made 270 hp stock. Probably a tight fit in our little lakester anyway!

Rex
Rex

Not much matters and the rest doesn't matter at all.

Offline Stan Back

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5889
Re: Ford 337 Flathead, XXO, right???
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2019, 01:30:29 PM »
Could be a tight fit in your budget, too.
Past (Only) Member of the San Berdoo Roadsters -- "California's Most-Exclusive Roadster Club" -- 19 Years of Bonneville and/or El Mirage Street Roadster Records

Online noboD

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 142
Re: Ford 337 Flathead, XXO, right???
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2019, 02:06:22 PM »
Graham 34, guess I am seeing the rule different then you say. It says Non-Ford and Mercury. SO substitute Chevy instead of Non-Ford and the rule says Chevy and Mercury. I realize that is not the intent. Maybe it should say NO Ford or Mercury. AM I confused?

Offline RichFox

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2663
Re: Ford 337 Flathead, XXO, right???
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2019, 02:16:32 PM »
Can't read to much into this. Plain old V8 Ford and Merc engines of the 221 - 239- and 253 persuasion as delivered are XF. Any over 325 cid are XXF.  Everything else is XO. O for Other than a Ford or Merc. Ford six. Lincoln or Ford truck=XO

Offline graham-34

  • New folks
  • Posts: 13
Re: Ford 337 Flathead, XXO, right???
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2019, 04:13:16 PM »
RichFox:  Thanks for the answer!  You summed it up well!

noboD:  The rulebook says (for just V-8 flatheads) that Fords and Mercurys are not allowed in the XO or XXO classes.  The intent was no passenger car Ford and Mercury V-8 flatheads are allowed in the XO or XXO classes.  The problem is the Ford 337 "8EQ" truck engine is allowed in the class even though the rulebook says no Ford V-8 flatheads.  RichFox explained this well: this is because it is treated like a Lincoln 337 "8EL" car engine.  That is why I suggested saying no V-8 Ford and Mercury "passenger car" flathead V-8 engines are allowed in XO and XXO (I added "passenger car") .  This way the wording is consistent with the wording in the XF section of the rulebook.

Offline desotoman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2816
Re: Ford 337 Flathead, XXO, right???
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2019, 04:58:41 PM »
RichFox:  Thanks for the answer!  You summed it up well!

noboD:  The rulebook says (for just V-8 flatheads) that Fords and Mercurys are not allowed in the XO or XXO classes.  The intent was no passenger car Ford and Mercury V-8 flatheads are allowed in the XO or XXO classes.  The problem is the Ford 337 "8EQ" truck engine is allowed in the class even though the rulebook says no Ford V-8 flatheads.  RichFox explained this well: this is because it is treated like a Lincoln 337 "8EL" car engine.  That is why I suggested saying no V-8 Ford and Mercury "passenger car" flathead V-8 engines are allowed in XO and XXO (I added "passenger car") .  This way the wording is consistent with the wording in the XF section of the rulebook.

Yes Graham you are correct. "Passenger car" should be added where you say.

Back in the old days you could run a 337" motor in the XF class. And it was done by as I recall Soloman and Hartsock at Bonneville. I was the one that prompted the word "Passenger Car" to be added to the rule book. Not because I wanted to outlaw the motor from the class. Instead I wanted to run a sleeved block 337 motor in the XF class that came out to 324 inches. I was told it was a Lincoln motor and I said I could provide evidence that it was in fact a Ford motor. The year I provided proof that it was a Ford motor, the very next year "Passenger Car" was added to the rule book. It was a shame in my opinion as they only have 3 main bearings also and are much heavier than a stock passenger car Flathead.

So reading the rule book as to what it said at the time, cost me a lot of time and money.

Tom G.
I love the USA. How much longer will we be a free nation?

Asking questions is one's only way of getting answers.

The rational person lets verified facts form or modify his opinion.  The ideologue ignores verified facts which don't fit his preconceived opinions.

Offline RichFox

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2663
Re: Ford 337 Flathead, XXO, right???
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2019, 10:27:28 PM »
But really you can run a 239 Ford even though it was delivered in a truck. Of saw mill or boat. Everybody knows what a Ford/Merc flathead is. Trying to sneak something else in on a technicality isn't happening.

Offline graham-34

  • New folks
  • Posts: 13
Re: Ford 337 Flathead, XXO, right???
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2019, 12:50:47 AM »
I totally agree, the truck vs passenger car distinction is not the best answer.  I latched on to it because that is how the rulebook tries to clarify this issue for XF and XXF.  Stating the as manufactured displacement would remove all ambiguity.  This would be my recommendation if someone wanted to reword this section to remove any ambiguity.  Again, I am sincerely trying to help improve things for the next Rookie that reads the rule book and is just trying to figure out what it really means.

If the 337 was only a Lincoln engine and not also a Ford, this section of the rulebook would not be so complicated.  I think it is not fair to desotoman to consider this just a technicality because some 337s were absolutely Fords.  If Ford just put Lincoln engines in its trucks I would not feel this way.  The exact opposite is true.  The 337 was an engine that Ford design and used in its trucks for an entire year (1948) before Lincoln started putting it in their cars in 1949. History remembers the 337 as a Lincoln motor mainly because more were sold in Lincolns but it is totally correct to also consider the 337 V-8 a Ford flathead because it was one first.

Offline RichFox

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2663
Re: Ford 337 Flathead, XXO, right???
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2019, 11:54:55 AM »
When I started running my 270 GMC powered red coupe, it was just X class. I ran against Fords, Lincolns, Buicks, Hudsons. Didn't matter. We all ran together. Then the Ford/Merc guys started whining. "No fair. Those guy go to fast and don't spend enough." So the XF and XO classes came to be. To the best of my memory the XF class has always been limited to the same 221/239 based engines that it is now. And it seems to be working OK.

Offline desotoman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2816
Re: Ford 337 Flathead, XXO, right???
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2019, 02:53:44 PM »
Everybody knows what a Ford/Merc flathead is. Trying to sneak something else in on a technicality isn't happening.

Rich,

  One must remember not everyone who buys a rule book was born in the 1930's or 1940's, or has tribal knowledge on what is acceptable vs. what is not acceptable.
  When I started my project I read the rule book and adhered to the rules as written. I was not trying to sneak something in on anyone. Just because the motor was a 337 inch motor does not matter, as sleeving, boring, stroking, and de-stroking motors is all a common practice in most if not all classes of the SCTA. If at the time the rulebook had said something to the effect of 221-239-255 Ford Flathead engines blocks only are allowed in this class, I would not have pursued the 337 Ford motor.
  In 1986 the SCTA rule book was a whopping 80 pages. In 2019 it is 281 pages plus a few that are not numbered. Granted there have been some new classes formed and a change from just jumping up two classes for supercharged to new supercharged engine classes. I am also sure some of the rulebook growth is based on clarification of the rules in the rulebook. This conversation is a perfect example of a clarification question.

Tom G.

I totally agree, the truck vs passenger car distinction is not the best answer.  I latched on to it because that is how the rulebook tries to clarify this issue for XF and XXF.  Stating the as manufactured displacement would remove all ambiguity.  This would be my recommendation if someone wanted to reword this section to remove any ambiguity.  Again, I am sincerely trying to help improve things for the next Rookie that reads the rule book and is just trying to figure out what it really means.

If the 337 was only a Lincoln engine and not also a Ford, this section of the rulebook would not be so complicated.  I think it is not fair to desotoman to consider this just a technicality because some 337s were absolutely Fords.  If Ford just put Lincoln engines in its trucks I would not feel this way.  The exact opposite is true.  The 337 was an engine that Ford design and used in its trucks for an entire year (1948) before Lincoln started putting it in their cars in 1949. History remembers the 337 as a Lincoln motor mainly because more were sold in Lincolns but it is totally correct to also consider the 337 V-8 a Ford flathead because it was one first.

Graham-34,

  I appreciate you bring this up. I think the idea of stating Flathead block years of manufacture and displacements would end any confusion on the issue. Here we are xxxx amount of years down the road and there is still confusion on the way the rules are written. I appreciate your post stating that the 337 was a Ford motor first before it was ever designated a Lincoln motor. I did in fact have heads that said Ford on them and nothing else and that is how I was able to prove I had a ford flathead engine.
  Thanks again for bringing this up.

Tom G.
I love the USA. How much longer will we be a free nation?

Asking questions is one's only way of getting answers.

The rational person lets verified facts form or modify his opinion.  The ideologue ignores verified facts which don't fit his preconceived opinions.

Offline Stan Back

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5889
Re: Ford 337 Flathead, XXO, right???
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2019, 04:45:44 PM »
Tom --

You'll have to admit that you cornered the market on them.
What's next in this discussion -- the French connection?

Stan
Past (Only) Member of the San Berdoo Roadsters -- "California's Most-Exclusive Roadster Club" -- 19 Years of Bonneville and/or El Mirage Street Roadster Records

Offline ronnieroadster

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 973
Re: Ford 337 Flathead, XXO, right???
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2019, 05:11:49 PM »
Hey just in case anyone is thinking about running the 337 Lincoln/ Ford truck engine i have a very nice set of Edelbrock finned aluminum heads for what i call the big block Flathead. Heck i also have a two carb Edmunds intake for this big block.  Selling these and many other Flathead related intakes and heads from my little collection from pre WW2 to the later productions that being into the fifitys. Going to put the proceeds into next years racing budget and a bigger truck with 4WD so i can pull the trailer out of the ruts on the salt next August.
     Ronnieroadster
« Last Edit: November 28, 2019, 12:14:18 PM by ronnieroadster »
Working in the shop I use the 'F' word a lot. No not that word these words Focus and Finish go Fast and Flathead Ford!
 ECTA  XF/BGRMR Record 179.8561
 LTA    XF/BGRMR  Record 200.921 First  Ever Ford Flathead Roadster to hit 200 MPH burning gasoline July 2018
 SCTA  XF/BGRMR Record 205.744  First gas burning Ford flathead powered roadster to top 200 MPH at Bonneville August 7, 2021 top speed 219.717
 SCTA  XXF/BGRMR Record 216.131 plus a Red Hat
"Life Member of the Bonneville 200 MPH Club"

Offline desotoman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2816
Re: Ford 337 Flathead, XXO, right???
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2019, 07:10:27 PM »
Tom --

You'll have to admit that you cornered the market on them.
What's next in this discussion -- the French connection?

Stan

Stan,
  Ha Ha Ha yes at one time I had 4 of them, maybe that was cornering the market. If I still had one I would give it to you to run in the San Bernadino Roadster.

  Don't get me started on the French connection, as I don't think we have enough years left to discuss what a fiasco that is. Especially the guys who are grinding everything off the outside of the blocks to make them look like an original Ford.  :police: :police: :police: :naughty :naughty :naughty

Tom G.
I love the USA. How much longer will we be a free nation?

Asking questions is one's only way of getting answers.

The rational person lets verified facts form or modify his opinion.  The ideologue ignores verified facts which don't fit his preconceived opinions.