Author Topic: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project  (Read 89886 times)

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Offline salt27

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Re: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project
« Reply #315 on: October 27, 2019, 06:46:13 PM »
It has been and still is interesting watching the evolution of this design exercise.

The appearance seems to have gradually started to resemble some of the proven streamliners.

Personally I find it difficult to get too excited knowing that the chances of it becoming reality are slim.

What would Jack Dolan say, maybe "theoretical race vehicles set theoretical records".

Carry on, Don

Offline Beef Stew

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Re: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project
« Reply #316 on: October 27, 2019, 07:31:16 PM »
Testing is cheap and easy.

1. How to test sucker-car. Rent a wet or dry shop vacuum from your local rental yard. Attach to inexpensive cooking pot. Take into your back yard, and set over mud-puddle. Flip on shop-vac. after running open vac to see how much mud was sucked up. Cost? Should be very little.

2. Aluminum wheel with sputtered metal. Buy a small aluminum wheel and have it coated. Then put it on a grinder of some sort (rental yard sourced), then spin wheel while touching a semi-hard surface. Does it get traction? Cost? Maybe free, depending on how good a talker you are. Quit often companies can write this off as R&D?you learn something and so do they. I've got free product to test on many occasions.

The biggest problem is this. No. One. Cares. Bloodhound couldn't get money. And they had a proven track record.






Former record holder at RIR ½ mile drags, El Mirage and Bonneville.

Beef Stew doesn't have his head where the sun-don't-shine. His head is in SoCal where the unusual is an everyday happening.

Offline tortoise

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Re: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project
« Reply #317 on: October 27, 2019, 10:28:25 PM »
I have been following the progress of the absolute world land speed record for the past 50 years. I am dumbfounded by the insistence of Thrust 2, Thrust SSC, Bloodhound, and Aussie Invader 5R to eschew pneumatic tires and instead run their vehicles on solid metal wheels.
Since the coefficient of friction of the metal wheels on dry salt lakes, or other hard surfaces, is insufficient to provide steering control they must find semi-soft surfaces to run on. Since these metal wheels obtain steering control by, in effect, machining grooves in the race course surface, they literally destroy the course as they run and cannot return on the exact same path. Also, finding the optimal surface composition for the record course seems to be adding unnecessary complication to the search for the land speed record venues.
When we ran The Blue Flame in 1970 on pneumatic tires, the steering control was excellent as the coefficient of friction approached that of rubber on asphalt or concrete. The Goodyear tires and our wheels were tested at Goodyear at speeds up to 850 mi/h without failure. The only failure in testing occurred when the wheel mounting mandrel broke loose at speed and the tire and wheel spun around in the concrete test cell. The wheel, while not being used afterward, only had some gouges on the rim from impacting the cell walls and still looked nice as a display piece.
Three of the four pneumatic tires and wheels were replaced for minor reasons on the salt flats. When one of the two front tires leaked air (probably the O-ring seal between the wheel center and the outer flange), we replaced both at the same time. One of the rear tires was replaced after a towed braking incident (locked up tire and skidded) wore through most of the thin rubber tread. The fourth tire was used for all 24 timed runs.
Since we could design and build 850 mi/h pneumatic tires 50 years ago, it should be a simple task to design and build 1,000 mi/h tires (and wheels) with the materials and design improvements since that period of time. When I think of all the time wasted by the LSR teams trying to use metal wheels for providing the steering function I am amazed. Just my opinion.
An experienced and educated perspective on metal vs pneumatic-tired wheels on salt. If he's right in the case of thrust power vehicles, what he says is more emphatically correct about wheel-driven vehicles, don't ya think?
« Last Edit: October 27, 2019, 10:49:14 PM by tortoise »

Offline Beef Stew

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Re: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project
« Reply #318 on: October 28, 2019, 12:36:20 AM »
An experienced and educated perspective on metal vs pneumatic-tired wheels on salt. If he's right in the case of thrust power vehicles, what he says is more emphatically correct about wheel-driven vehicles, don't ya think?

This is all very true. There is NO need to reinvent the wheel. Except Simspeed is locked into the idea of ultra-low frontal area. Putting pneumatic tires on the 'liner would increase frontal area?end of story.

Back in 1970, the publicity value was a win for Goodyear. Today an FIA World Record, and $2.00, won't buy you a cup of coffee, except at Mickey D's. So I sorta doubt that Goodyear would spend the amount of money needed to develop a 1,000 mph tire.
Former record holder at RIR ½ mile drags, El Mirage and Bonneville.

Beef Stew doesn't have his head where the sun-don't-shine. His head is in SoCal where the unusual is an everyday happening.

Offline TD

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Re: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project
« Reply #319 on: October 28, 2019, 09:12:39 AM »
Really interesting thread, keep going!

...
What would Jack Dolan say, maybe "theoretical race vehicles set theoretical records".

This reminds me of the Admiral Hyman Rickover version:  "Paper submarines work best."  :-)

Offline RichFox

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Re: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project
« Reply #320 on: October 28, 2019, 11:44:55 AM »
I am frustrated by concepts advanced without any proof of concept. In the end it seems meaningless. I would like you to try a mock up of your engine drive wheel package to see just what size package you can do in the real world. This seems to be central to the whole project. I am also very concerned about your assumptions on the metal sprayed alloy wheels. Makes a nice step plate. Interested in how it will do in this application. Just my thoughts, having only recently began looking at this thread. These things may have been addressed already.

Offline racergeo

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Re: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project
« Reply #321 on: October 28, 2019, 12:56:38 PM »
   Stan, you being frustrated advances the notion that your taking this thread seriously. I only read it for the excellent wry humor. Rich,Eddie, Bob, yourself and others have kept me in stitches. If anyone who has read this pipe dream ever won the lotto for say $200 mil.not one one them would follow this concept and build a LSR with it. In the years to come this will evolve to a car that looks like the new Arlo Langlo 4wd car with actual rubber tires.

Offline racergeo

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Re: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project
« Reply #322 on: October 28, 2019, 01:08:50 PM »
  I actually have read this thread to see if it advanced ONE idea that could be PRACTICALLY applied to an actual race car.

  John Deere will build a 200 mph promotional tractor before the proposed solid tire design goes 200 on a land speed car at BV. 

Offline Simspeed

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Re: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project
« Reply #323 on: October 28, 2019, 03:04:37 PM »
An experienced and educated perspective on metal vs pneumatic-tired wheels on salt. If he's right in the case of thrust power vehicles, what he says is more emphatically correct about wheel-driven vehicles, don't ya think?

This is all very true. There is NO need to reinvent the wheel. Except Simspeed is locked into the idea of ultra-low frontal area. Putting pneumatic tires on the 'liner would increase frontal area?end of story.

Back in 1970, the publicity value was a win for Goodyear. Today an FIA World Record, and $2.00, won't buy you a cup of coffee, except at Mickey D's. So I sorta doubt that Goodyear would spend the amount of money needed to develop a 1,000 mph tire.
This is the point of my use of billet wheel/tires for this design.  No one is making pneumatic tires designed to exceed 500 mph.  Anything beyond that speed using gas filled tires is an accident waiting to happen in my opinion.

Offline Simspeed

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Re: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project
« Reply #324 on: October 28, 2019, 03:27:40 PM »
I am frustrated by concepts advanced without any proof of concept. In the end it seems meaningless. I would like you to try a mock up of your engine drive wheel package to see just what size package you can do in the real world. This seems to be central to the whole project. I am also very concerned about your assumptions on the metal sprayed alloy wheels. Makes a nice step plate. Interested in how it will do in this application. Just my thoughts, having only recently began looking at this thread. These things may have been addressed already.
Rich...not sure what you mean about what size the engine, drive wheel package would be in the real world.  Everything you see in the drawings have been scaled to actual size give or take a millimeter or three.  Tire diameter is 26.5" and width is 4".  The differential is dimensionally accurate, as is the Quick Drive (tm) torque coupling. I pulled the dimensions off the mfg. website.  The Liquid Piston (tm) engine is designed around the mfg rotor size of 1.37L for each rotor; whereas the Mazda 13B engine uses two rotors with a combined 1.3L or 0.65L each.  The dimensional geometry for the engine components I got off the LP and Mazda websites.  The spark plugs are even dimensionally accurate. The CF 2" tubing cad drawing cross sections were downloaded from the mfg website. The rest of the car is drawn to the same scale as the components mentioned.  The driver is also dimensionally accurate standing 6'2" with a 12" long foot sole.  The frontal area is derived from a cross section of the body at the widest point and calculated by the cad program in sq. ft.  For the intended design purposes what you see in these drawings is what you'd see in the real world if the car was built to actual component scale.  Thanks... Terry

Offline Simspeed

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Re: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project
« Reply #325 on: October 28, 2019, 03:31:19 PM »
  I actually have read this thread to see if it advanced ONE idea that could be PRACTICALLY applied to an actual race car.

  John Deere will build a 200 mph promotional tractor before the proposed solid tire design goes 200 on a land speed car at BV.
racergeo...Please identify any idea proposed in these drawings that could not be practically applied to an actual race car given that proof of concept testing would be necessary as is the case for any new idea beyond conventional norms.  Thanks... Terry.

Offline racergeo

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Re: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project
« Reply #326 on: October 28, 2019, 03:41:18 PM »
   Malo has the new Goodyears and they are suited for 600. Practicality, reliability, dependability, affordability,repeat ability and especially DRIVABILITY are necessary qualities of a successful LSR effort. You need to build an actual race car and gather first hand info and then apply what you learn to this pipe dream and then someone may take it seriously. :roll:

Offline racergeo

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Re: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project
« Reply #327 on: October 28, 2019, 03:50:29 PM »
   Terry me boy, for starters the SCTA will NEVER allow your tires to be tested on the salt race course. (maybe the bend in the road) :laugh:  The indigenous people of AU. will not allow their sacred salt to be ground. That leaves you with in South America with Mike Cook's fluid English.

Offline Simspeed

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Re: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project
« Reply #328 on: October 28, 2019, 05:05:40 PM »
   Malo has the new Goodyears and they are suited for 600. Practicality, reliability, dependability, affordability,repeat ability and especially DRIVABILITY are necessary qualities of a successful LSR effort. You need to build an actual race car and gather first hand info and then apply what you learn to this pipe dream and then someone may take it seriously. :roll:
racergeo...this design is conceptual at it's core.  Whether you or anyone else takes it seriously is not my concern.  I posed these ideas in order to get feedback so that I might learn things about the sport, the cars that race successfully, and the experienced people who build and drive them.  I've received quite a lot both pro and con while offering up ideas that by their very nature do not represent the status quo.  I agree the factors that make a successful LSR effort are much as you stated. However, you failed to mention the importance of creativity in both design and execution of ideas that set one great car, team, effort apart from another. 

Where does that extra ounce of speed come from that breaks old records and sets the bar a little bit higher for the next attempt? How do we know what's practical, reliable, dependable, affordable, repeatable, and driveable unless we think beyond the status quo and look for new or different ways to move the needle higher?  Different does not necessarily mean wrong.  It may prove to not work but how will we know unless we conceive new methods, materials and processes to be tried and judged in attempts to find a better path forward? 

There's not one single idea I've proposed that can not be reasonably adapted for testing to learn if it might meet the criteria you defined for a successful LSR effort.  Until and unless an idea proves to be faulty, naysayer misgivings you and others have voiced are no more valid or meaningful than my conceptual notions that they may actually work as intended.  I'm more than willing for any or all of my ideas to be proven wrong.  That's because I know chasing LSR records successfully will require forward thinking beyond what has worked successfully in the past.  I do appreciate everyone's input on whatever level you care to contribute.  Just be certain your bah-humbug attitudes don't define how you want the world see you...because they will if you're not careful.  Thanks... Terry.

Offline RichFox

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Re: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project
« Reply #329 on: October 28, 2019, 05:19:31 PM »
As I said, I am a late comer to this thread. So I may have missed something. However I have seen both the power pack in the wheel electric proposal and the torque converter drive. Drawings are OK. But in my experience real world concerns often cause things to grow. With the new design it's not as much of a issue. But I still think that is why people build models and mock ups. To find out what runs into what that you thought was OK. Maybe computers have made things better for designing a complex device. But I still think Real World testing is the last word. Also. My experience with metal spray is 40 years ago. So I am way out of date. But from what little I can see, it looks like a Metco wire process spraying aluminum on a surface. I've done that. You can get around 50 grit sand paper surface. But it's soft and has poor shear strength.  Have you as much as contacted the company you are counting on, for their thoughts? Maybe a small sample of the product you could test? I know that there is no expectation of any metal ever being cut on this project. But even for what it is, some solid information is necessary or it's just a wast of time.  IMHO