Author Topic: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project  (Read 89894 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline salt27

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1734
Re: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project
« Reply #165 on: August 16, 2019, 02:13:39 AM »
Congratulations to the Salt Shark team for their 288 mph for what I believe is the top speed of the meet.                                                     715 E BFS Speed Demon Racing 332.815


SCTA website list Speed Demon at 369 MPH for fast time. (8/15)
« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 02:40:23 AM by salt27 »

Offline RichFox

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2663
Re: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project
« Reply #166 on: August 16, 2019, 10:29:28 AM »
Never the less, For a new, unconventional car. On that course. I think the Salt Shark did very well. Hats off to you guys.

Offline Rex Schimmer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2626
  • Only time and money prevent completion!
Re: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project
« Reply #167 on: August 20, 2019, 06:16:33 PM »
Terry,
I am sure that some place in your presentation is the reason that you are not planning to just use an all electric drive, i.e. battery packs and high performance electric motors as you are already proposing for your final drive. Either approach will require some very challenging electronic control engineering but with an all electric drive and the 12,000 ft altitude of the salt lake in South America it would seem the all electric approach would have a huge advantage.

I have to say again that I am very impressed with your engineering and CAD abilities. I think it shows how quickly a very viable design for a landspeed car can be generated and modified quickly to provide the latest design thoughts of the engineer. I at first did not follow you thread because I thought it was a "flash in the pan" but with your continued efforts and constant modifications that are so well shown in your CAD drawings it is one of the first things I look at.

Rex
Rex

Not much matters and the rest doesn't matter at all.

Offline Simspeed

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 317
Re: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project
« Reply #168 on: August 20, 2019, 07:27:11 PM »
Terry,
I am sure that some place in your presentation is the reason that you are not planning to just use an all electric drive, i.e. battery packs and high performance electric motors as you are already proposing for your final drive. Either approach will require some very challenging electronic control engineering but with an all electric drive and the 12,000 ft altitude of the salt lake in South America it would seem the all electric approach would have a huge advantage.

I have to say again that I am very impressed with your engineering and CAD abilities. I think it shows how quickly a very viable design for a landspeed car can be generated and modified quickly to provide the latest design thoughts of the engineer. I at first did not follow you thread because I thought it was a "flash in the pan" but with your continued efforts and constant modifications that are so well shown in your CAD drawings it is one of the first things I look at.

Rex
Thanks for your kind and encouraging words Rex, its great to receive such valuable input from yourself and others who have shown an interest in this design project.

My reasoning for the IC engine component for this design has to do with packaging and weight.  My goal from the beginning has been to produce an aerodynamic design that breaks the 4 sq.ft. FA barrier.  The latest version using modified 13B rotor powerplants, wheel motors, and a DIF layout accomplishes that. 

I looked at the successful Buck Eye Bullet effort in detail and found in my opinion that weight, FA, and motor/drive train choice were their biggest drawbacks.  They reported the car weighs over 8000 lbs primarily from 2 mW of battery mass.  The Simspeed IC/Gen powerplants and NoS should weigh 1200 to 1500 lbs total.  We're shooting for 4000 to 4500 max vehicle weight with a 47.6% smaller frontal area than the BB3 vehicle's 7.64 sq.ft.

I haven't looked at V.5.5 hp requirements for the Bolivia salt flats.  My guess is the reduced aero drag at that altitude will compensate for the loss of IC hp added NoS can't provide.  I do agree however that we will likely need to run at that location to reach top speed.  I'm disappointed like others that we didn't see the Ack Attack liner prove record speeds were attainable at that altitude.  Does anyone know of successful record attempts in Bolivia?

Offline ggl205

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 956
  • G/FL 218.282 since 1995. G/FL record since 1993.
Re: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project
« Reply #169 on: August 20, 2019, 07:48:36 PM »
Don?t forget Australia.

John

Offline Simspeed

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 317
Re: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project
« Reply #170 on: August 20, 2019, 07:58:00 PM »
We continue to tinker with component locations in an attempt to optimize Cg and Cp.  Here in V.5.6 we've moved the IC/Gen powerplants forward together to offset the added weight of the third set of drive wheels required for calculated hp requirements. We've also come to the conclusion that a detachable carbon fiber driver tub is the better option in terms of crash safety and cantilevered weight savings at the nose of the car.

We're giving some thought to adding an active rudder to the stabilizer fin for yaw control.  That's the easiest way to adapt a yaw control mechanism at the rear of the vehicle.  I read where the Honda F1 team added a rudder to their car using a closed loop control program that adjusted rudder position relative to yaw angle.  Their car still spun so not sure attempting to program rudder movement rather than using driver foots controls would be the better option.  Any opinions?  Thanks... Terry
« Last Edit: August 20, 2019, 08:01:34 PM by Simspeed »

Offline Simspeed

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 317
Re: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project
« Reply #171 on: August 20, 2019, 08:00:03 PM »
Don?t forget Australia.

John
Personally I'd rather run at Australia than Bolivia for logistical and language reasons.  Do you know what the usable length of track surface is there John?  Thanks... Terry

Offline ggl205

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 956
  • G/FL 218.282 since 1995. G/FL record since 1993.
Re: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project
« Reply #172 on: August 20, 2019, 08:07:42 PM »
Not sure what is now available but when we ran there in 1995, we had ten miles of groomed surface. Well, let?s just say it was dragged but still pretty rough. Today, I hear dragging has greatly improved with a correspondingly smoother surface. A quick check with DLRA should provide more useable information. If I had the funds, I would go back.

John

Offline Simspeed

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 317
Re: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project
« Reply #173 on: August 21, 2019, 09:35:44 AM »
I ran across this DIF car on FB...can't find any more about it.  Anyone know something about this one?  Thanks... Terry

Apparently there is/are steering wheel(s) ahead of the driver.  I'd still like to know more about this interesting vehicle if anyone knows.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2019, 09:40:23 AM by Simspeed »

Offline TrickyDicky

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 607
Re: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project
« Reply #174 on: August 21, 2019, 11:41:11 AM »
Not sure what is now available but when we ran there in 1995, we had ten miles of groomed surface. Well, let?s just say it was dragged but still pretty rough. Today, I hear dragging has greatly improved with a correspondingly smoother surface. A quick check with DLRA should provide more useable information. If I had the funds, I would go back.

John

According to the DLRA web site, they are planning an FIA/FIM event at the end of March 2020.

Track will be 11 miles long with the middle mile timed (giving 5 miles before the clocks in each direction).


Offline Malcolm UK

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 801
Re: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project
« Reply #175 on: August 21, 2019, 12:20:48 PM »
The question was asked at #168 about records in Bolivia on their salt flat at altitude. FIM bike records have been achieved and Ralph Hudson rode a GSXR-1000 bike to 298mph, in partial streamlined form.
Malcolm UK, Derby, England.

Offline STICK777

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 49
Re: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project
« Reply #176 on: August 21, 2019, 01:29:59 PM »
>I ran across this DIF car on FB...can't find any more about it.

Beautiful car. You probably know all there is already, but it's now named 'Albion Arrow' and runs in J/FS.
To my knowledge did one run at Speed Week and reached 147mph... for now.

Didn't find anything else myself.


Edit: I didn't insert that emojie... :)

Offline superleggera

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 144
Re: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project
« Reply #177 on: September 06, 2019, 05:04:11 PM »
@Terry.  Updates?  Did you make it out to SpeedWeek this year and converse with some of the streamliner guys to further your education?    Inevitably there is a massive amount of knowledge and talent out there on the salt to learn from.  Hopefully you had the chance to take advantage of it.
- me: Mark - home: Dry Heat, AZ USA - build: motorcycle streamliner

Offline Simspeed

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 317
Re: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project
« Reply #178 on: September 08, 2019, 02:50:56 PM »
It's been a little while but I've come up with a radical revision that does away with the electric gen/motors and now relies totally on IC rotary power.  I came to the realization that because the custom gen/motor and rotary IC powerplants we designed were the same diameter and width we could simply replace the electric wheel motors with IC rotary engines and do away with all the electric power components and keep the same body geometry. 

So here we see elimination of the separate IC/Gen powerplants and moved the rotatory engines into the wheel envelops.  By spreading out the drive wheels into a "V" pattern with two inline sprung steering wheels with a single rotor engine each, followed by a two rotor engine with wider wheel track, and a three rotor engine package with the widest wheel track we effectively have a traction foot print the full width of the car with not much overlap.  The non-powered trailing wheel at the back carries the disc brakes and supports the back half weight of the car.

By moving all the traction wheels and greatest portion of weight to the front of the car we should see more stable handing resulting in better control for the DIF driver position.  The reported stability of the FWD Salt Shark was the impetus for moving the power wheels forward for this design.  We've dropped the rotor count from 8 to 7 in this design but there's room to increase over all power from 3200 hp to 3500 hp by shooting for 500 hp per rotor which has proven doable by a number of drag teams who are pushing 1300 hp from 13B 2 rotor turbo engines.  It's been shown in a number of different engine combinations that NOs can generate power output comparable to high boost turbos.  Hopefully that will translate to the salt successfully.

Weight reduction is a big factor with the all IC wheel motor design.  Eliminating the electrical drive components saves upwards of 1500 lbs which I think now makes total weight between 3000 and 3500 lbs possible.  The design uses no clutch or transmission as each of the six traction wheels are directly driven by the attached rotor engines.  Push starts are mandatory with ignition switched on to create combustion power to the wheels.

The power between wheel pairs is not mechanically linked.  We've combined the throttle bodies and intake plenum for the two rotor and three rotor engines so they breath common air and share that control signal.  The two steering wheels have separate throttle bodies and air boxes so controlling the spark through a single engine controller for all rotors is the sync method to be used in conjunction with calibrated throttle linkage.

We've shortened the car roughly 5 feet and increased the track width of the widest wheel pair to 16".  I tried first to move the three rotor engine to the front and steer with those wheels but that combination was just too cumbersome to be practical within the existing body geometry.  Going with inline steering wheels with single rotor engines worked out nicely.

All in all, I think this design offers a better chance for record speeds even with the lack of mechanical synchronization between the powered wheels.  Your thoughts... Terry.  Thanks...
« Last Edit: September 08, 2019, 03:10:14 PM by Simspeed »

Offline Simspeed

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 317
Re: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project
« Reply #179 on: September 08, 2019, 02:52:06 PM »
Follow up drawings...