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Author Topic: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project  (Read 17798 times)

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Offline Simspeed

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Re: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project
« Reply #270 on: October 05, 2019, 02:19:12 AM »
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Offline Simspeed

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Re: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project
« Reply #271 on: October 05, 2019, 02:20:06 AM »
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Offline Simspeed

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Re: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project
« Reply #272 on: October 05, 2019, 02:20:29 AM »
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Offline Simspeed

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Re: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project
« Reply #273 on: October 05, 2019, 02:25:37 AM »
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Offline thefrenchowl

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Re: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project
« Reply #274 on: October 05, 2019, 04:25:59 AM »
Norton proper Wankel twin rotor engine had its inlets via the rotors... Didn't save them...
 
Apart from winning a few races on the Isle of Man TT in a ""favourable"" category, it went nowhere...

Not enough sales = high costs = bankruptcy down the line...

LP cost of $30,000 for a 70cc, just imagine what it will cost you for one big rotor, never mind the debugging and engineering costs to reliably link 6 together plus all the hardware around!!!

I work in the field of water treatment... Every year, most Utilities Big Boys spent huge amounts on various ""pie in the sky"" projects in the knowledge that forty nine and a half will fail miserably BUT maybe half of one can be made to work at huge cost and will give them an edge in 10 years time over their competitors... It's called R&D...

This LP stuff looks very much R&D to me  :-D... And tax deductible for those that keep LP alive via their investment, otherwise no progress cause there's no way it would get done.

Good luck to you on the tax deductible bit!!!

At one stage in your study, you'll have to stop firing with all barrels in all directions and focus on what's important to you and what will have to come 1st... Aero?, power?, traction?, packaging?... Then admit that the 2nd, 3rd, etc.. will have to be bog std so you can concentrate time, effort and most of the cost on the 1st goal.Then once proved, go to 2nd item on the list, etc...

I don't know when the Summers Brothers started their Bonneville career, but it was in the fifties... Then at least ten years of high/hard graft to get to the point where they astonished the world and this writer then aged 15...

Patrick
« Last Edit: October 05, 2019, 04:36:18 AM by thefrenchowl »
Flat Head Forever

...What exactly are we trying to do here?...

Offline Sumner

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Re: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project
« Reply #275 on: October 05, 2019, 08:22:22 AM »
......At one stage in your study, you'll have to stop firing with all barrels in all directions and focus on what's important to you and what will have to come 1st... Aero?, power?, traction?, packaging?... Then admit that the 2nd, 3rd, etc.. will have to be bog std so you can concentrate time, effort and most of the cost on the 1st goal.Then once proved, go to 2nd item on the list, etc...

I don't know when the Summers Brothers started their Bonneville career, but it was in the fifties... Then at least ten years of high/hard graft to get to the point where they astonished the world and this writer then aged 15...

Patrick

Agreed....it has to this point taken years in most cases to get a really fast car sorted out and that has been using methods pretty much already proven to work.  The  opportunities to actually run a car are so limited due to weather, track availability and track surface conditions.  Unfortunately you either have to have the money yourself to do it or the experience and track record with proven equipment to attract sponsorship and landspeed racing just hasn't attracted much in the way of reliable major sponsorship over the past 20-30 years in my memory.  The general public has no real interest.  A car goes 600 and they read a 2 paragraph story and say cool and that is the end of that.  Doesn't sell much product for the sponsor.

I never had the money to build a competitive engine but had a plan to build the car, run it with a less than an optimal engine to obtain a base line for the car.  If the car proved to be fast with less hp than existing cars then maybe someone with more money that didn't have the time to build a car would come aboard and we could go for a record together.  In my case the years went by involved in other fun interests and I find myself at 75 with a partially completed car that is far from proven and probably won't be.

My suggestion is try and go down Patrick's suggested road.  Finalize your chassis and body and start building the car.  Put a conventional engine in it with know HP.  Run the car and see how fast it goes.  Then you will have a good idea of the cars Cd and the HP needed to run a certain speed and can start extrapolating to see what the car might run with an engine/power-train of your dreams.  A number of very successful land speed racers have taken this route.  There are so many aspects to being successful on the salt and the car and engine are just part of the equation.

You could cheaply do some things now.  For instance...



.... take your drawing for the driver's compartment and build it out of either wood or PVC components and see if it is practical and the driver can actually get in and out of it with a driver's suit and helmet on.  I started that way and ...

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/construction%20page-15.html

 .... then made changes to make my design practical.  Then replaced the wood with steel.

There are things you could get started on right now before letting the years slip away like I did  :x.  Get started and have fun with it,

Sumner
« Last Edit: October 05, 2019, 08:25:21 AM by Sumner »

Offline RichFox

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Re: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project
« Reply #276 on: October 05, 2019, 12:10:29 PM »
Do I understand that this has gone from 7 randomly placed wheels to four? One on each corner? With quick change drives? You need room to get to the QC units or they are not so QC, And I thought you needed all those drive wheels for traction. I like the old car better.

Offline Simspeed

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Re: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project
« Reply #277 on: October 05, 2019, 12:32:56 PM »
Norton proper Wankel twin rotor engine had its inlets via the rotors... Didn't save them...
 
Apart from winning a few races on the Isle of Man TT in a ""favourable"" category, it went nowhere...

Not enough sales = high costs = bankruptcy down the line...

LP cost of $30,000 for a 70cc, just imagine what it will cost you for one big rotor, never mind the debugging and engineering costs to reliably link 6 together plus all the hardware around!!!

This LP stuff looks very much R&D to me  :-D... And tax deductible for those that keep LP alive via their investment, otherwise no progress cause there's no way it would get done.

Patrick
Hi Patrick,

LP has contracted with DARPA to develop jet fuel powered drone engines using this technology.  The power to weight ratio is pretty amazing.  So yes this is R&D but with government contracts to support their work along with investor backing.  Everything costs money that I don't have so I'm looking at options that can be targeted for possible backing/sponsorship for the right team of racers.  Thanks... Terry.

Offline Simspeed

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Re: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project
« Reply #278 on: October 05, 2019, 12:52:56 PM »
Agreed....it has to this point taken years in most cases to get a really fast car sorted out and that has been using methods pretty much already proven to work.  The  opportunities to actually run a car are so limited due to weather, track availability and track surface conditions.  Unfortunately you either have to have the money yourself to do it or the experience and track record with proven equipment to attract sponsorship and landspeed racing just hasn't attracted much in the way of reliable major sponsorship over the past 20-30 years in my memory.  The general public has no real interest.  A car goes 600 and they read a 2 paragraph story and say cool and that is the end of that.  Doesn't sell much product for the sponsor.

Sumner
Hi Sumner,
All valid points and I recognize the validity of your approach...for a younger man.  Frankly, that route isn't feasible for me at my age and finances.  What I'm doing here is exploring concepts looking for one that has the potential to hit record speeds.  If I land on the right technical solution that can be packaged and promoted for funding, backed by a team of experienced and accomplished racers, then we'll see about approaching the right business/money people who can benefit most from the promotional aspects of a record setting venture.  As you said correctly, sponsor funding for LSR teams is rare in this day and age.  That's not to say that money can't be found given the right motivation for the right people.  The Liquid Piston people could be just such an organization given their product line and long term business aspirations.  Having LSR record(s) to promote their marketing efforts when that day arrives could be a huge feather under their corporate belt.  Designing a car with record setting potential around their engine products could be one way to get our team's collective foot in the door for part or full sponsorship in conjunctions with other supporting mfgs and business interests.  For now we're working to arrive at a competitive design...from that point forward we'll be looking for business opportunities for a JV effort.  Thanks... Terry

Offline Simspeed

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Re: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project
« Reply #279 on: October 05, 2019, 01:16:53 PM »
Do I understand that this has gone from 7 randomly placed wheels to four? One on each corner? With quick change drives? You need room to get to the QC units or they are not so QC, And I thought you needed all those drive wheels for traction. I like the old car better.
Hi Rich,
The 7 wheel placement wasn't so random even though it might have looked that way.  We scrapped that design for several reasons, mainly because there was no direct mechanical connection between all the drive wheels.  It helped with traction but after reading the feedback I realized traction wasn't the biggest issue given the low torque power curve of the engines using a 1:1 direct drive train which was a necessity for the IC wheel engine concept.

Here we're still using the 1:1 direct drive but all the rotors are running through a common crankshaft using a Quick Drive (tm) torque coupling to a QC steering differential so we can run engine rpm up into the power curve for launch with a standard push truck.  Because we're launching with a 1:1 gear ratio and a slipping torque converter, we're not hitting the wheels with excess power down low where traction is typically most needed.  Also with this configuration the car will be much lighter that previously planned helping the engine to power the car to speed.  If we can apply power through the FWD alone we can negate yaw because the real wheels will strongly track the front with rearward Cp helping to keep the back of the car in line.  Whether two drive wheels will be sufficient for record speed is unknown but there are other cars using two wheel rear drives successfully.  With this design I think it has a chance.  We can always add a second steering differential giving 4 wheel FWD capability to the car.  Thanks... Terry.

Offline RichFox

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Re: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project
« Reply #280 on: October 05, 2019, 02:38:02 PM »
I was joking with the "Random".  If a car like this was to be built I believe the builder would be foolish not to use all the weight for traction. Turbinator uses 4WD. What ever a car like this looks like it needs to accelerate hard. And I doubt the wheels you envision provide as much bite as it will need. At least plan on using all of them.

Offline Simspeed

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Re: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project
« Reply #281 on: October 05, 2019, 04:13:13 PM »
I was joking with the "Random".  If a car like this was to be built I believe the builder would be foolish not to use all the weight for traction. Turbinator uses 4WD. What ever a car like this looks like it needs to accelerate hard. And I doubt the wheels you envision provide as much bite as it will need. At least plan on using all of them.
Without the electric motor drives there's no good way to get mechanically linked IC power back to the real wheels in this small body envelop.  We could split the engine into 2 two rotors, one fore one aft, but that shifts the weight bias toward the rear which I'm not inclined to do given the DIF position this design needs to keep the FA below 4 sq.ft.  I've listened to what everyone has said about DIF driver feel, so I think RWD here is something to avoid.  I'd feel more comfortable with 4 front drive wheels.  Thanks... Terry

Offline RichFox

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Re: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project
« Reply #282 on: October 05, 2019, 04:45:54 PM »
A hydraulic pump and motor doesn't take up much room. But the oil tank might be to big to go anywhere. Have you considered exhaust augmentation? Worked for Convair. Or look up Curtis-Wright 3350 Turbo compound engines. We had them when I started at United. Not for your car. But there have been aircraft that flew using a piston engine as the gas generator for a turbine that drove the prop. In theory the power loss is almost nil. And pipes are easy and cheap to run. Also you might think about a Jato assist for starting the run. Some rocket that is discarded after burn out at hopefully 150 mph. Might be easier that a really fast push truck.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2019, 05:32:49 PM by RichFox »

Online manta22

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Re: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project
« Reply #283 on: October 05, 2019, 05:38:55 PM »
Rich: "Some rocket that is discarded after burn out..."

Advice- don't stand down range!   :?
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Offline Sumner

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Re: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project
« Reply #284 on: October 08, 2019, 12:04:20 PM »
..  I've listened to what everyone has said about DIF driver feel...

Another thought on DIF here at about the 12 minute 10 second point from someone who has gone over 600 ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jDB84M8zXU

Sumner