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Author Topic: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project  (Read 17346 times)

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Offline Simspeed

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Re: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project
« Reply #255 on: September 30, 2019, 01:44:53 AM »
Here's a colored cross section of the 3 piece wheel design I'm using for this study.
But no one has wheels like yours to apply the coating to so that you can test it. I think that Bob's idea of making a small test piece might be best. I'm not sure if this is a serious discussion about a car that is proposed. Or Blue Sky thoughts on the possibilitys out there in LSR. I am sure the slipnot people can supply you with a test wheel if you send them something to spray. It needn't be a accurate model of your planned wheel. Just some thing you could use to test CF on the salt with. Could save an awful lot of time and money if it's not going to work.
I agree that testing must be done Rich.  My comment about coating someone else's wheels was aimed at simply testing to see if the SlipNOT product would offer usable traction on any aluminum wheel.  Obviously, wheels specific to the Simspeed design would have to be constructed and tested independently if the product showed promise in a nonspecific wheel test.  Thanks... Terry

Offline Simspeed

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Re: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project
« Reply #256 on: September 30, 2019, 01:47:14 AM »
It seems to me, that even as an intellectual exercise you should prove your foundation before wasting time on things that don't work. To that end I propose that you build a test device for your wheels. I think a scooter or snowmobile would be a good starting point. Something with a centrifugal clutch. If you begin with a snowmobile you will need to modify it to accept a rear tire instead of the track. Either way you get a scooter tire and wheel  and machine a piece of aluminum to fit in the same place as the tire. Send it off to be slipnoted. Then take it to Speedweek with a scale and attach it to a car or truck and see if it will pull as well as the rubber tire. Or at least well enough to give you the acceleration you need. And you would have a scooter to ride around the pits to see what other people are doing.

I think that's a good idea Rich.  I'll explore it and see what I can come up with that would fit the bill.  Thanks... Terry.

Offline salt27

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Re: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project
« Reply #257 on: September 30, 2019, 02:09:13 AM »
Interesting product, it's designed to coat metal so you won't slip on metal. Stairs, road plates, etc..  I'm guessing that tires on road work plates are rubber. And shoes on metal steps are rubber like. So the product is probably a great surface for tires to run on. I'm a bit troubled with it being the tire. A small test section should be created by you, and tested. I personally believe you need contact patch to make any of this work. My partner who is very involved in the big show explained it perfectly. In drag racing tires need shear strength of the rubber to accelerate. That's why the large slicks. At Bonneville we are dealing with MOST often the shear strength of the salt. And that is why solid wheels don't work, contact patch. It's that simple. bob
The contact patch of the wheel design I'm showing would be very similar to that of a rubber LSR tire.  The wheel would depress into the salt under weight such that the upward curve of the body and side radii would bear against the salt for added contact.  The side radii would also help to add directional stability that would not be present with a flat surface running side to side.  That was the intention anyway when the design was created.  Thanks... Terry



Terry, look at 1.N "course damage" in the SCTA rule book.

It addresses non-pneumatic wheel/tire combinations and damage to the course.

The "depress into the salt under weight" may be an issue.

Not trying to be negative, just helpful.

Carry on,  Don

Offline Peter Jack

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Re: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project
« Reply #258 on: September 30, 2019, 06:38:48 AM »
Terry, if your design works as you think and I have little reason to think it won't, you will be unwelcome at any meet because you'll kill the track really quickly. You'll be automatically breaking up the surface so will have to move the track over every run to maintain traction.

Pete

Offline jacksoni

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Re: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project
« Reply #259 on: September 30, 2019, 07:55:39 AM »

Couple of thoughts. Considering the state of the track at speedweek this year, everybody would have been d/q'd for track damage.... in my first run it was,, "krikey, look at the ruts" at speed in the 2. :dhorse:

Being Bonneville racers all and running under SCTA rules, there are a lot of concerns with Simspeed's design and does it fit those rules. In many cases, no, and this has been pointed out many times. At this point it is a design study with hopes at some time it may become a real car, at least that is my take. When it becomes reality the locale of an attempt will need to be worked out. May be at Bonneville, maybe someplace else, and if there is a sanctioning body its rules will need to be considered. Meantime there is a lot of designing to be done to get a more or less workable design. He has come up with a lot of neat ideas. Some may work, others not.  Lets leave the rule nitpicking till later. JMO
Jack Iliff
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Offline thefrenchowl

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Re: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project
« Reply #260 on: September 30, 2019, 10:25:45 AM »
Yes, same here, this discussion might help me better design my next Bonneville bike, so argumentation is good...



(preliminaries, I'm not up to design it proper yet, although engine is done and dusted!!!)

Patrick
« Last Edit: September 30, 2019, 10:28:22 AM by thefrenchowl »
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Offline Simspeed

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Re: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project
« Reply #261 on: September 30, 2019, 07:06:46 PM »

Terry, look at 1.N "course damage" in the SCTA rule book.
It addresses non-pneumatic wheel/tire combinations and damage to the course.
The "depress into the salt under weight" may be an issue.
Not trying to be negative, just helpful.

Carry on,  Don
Quote
Terry, if your design works as you think and I have little reason to think it won't, you will be unwelcome at any meet because you'll kill the track really quickly. You'll be automatically breaking up the surface so will have to move the track over every run to maintain traction.

Pete
Quote
Couple of thoughts. Considering the state of the track at speedweek this year, everybody would have been d/q'd for track damage.... in my first run it was,, "krikey, look at the ruts" at speed in the 2. :dhorse:

Being Bonneville racers all and running under SCTA rules, there are a lot of concerns with Simspeed's design and does it fit those rules. In many cases, no, and this has been pointed out many times. At this point it is a design study with hopes at some time it may become a real car, at least that is my take. When it becomes reality the locale of an attempt will need to be worked out. May be at Bonneville, maybe someplace else, and if there is a sanctioning body its rules will need to be considered. Meantime there is a lot of designing to be done to get a more or less workable design. He has come up with a lot of neat ideas. Some may work, others not.  Lets leave the rule nitpicking till later. JMO
Thanks Guys,
We are attempting to arrive at a specific design that will eventually be processed to include design and engineering of every part and component that makes up the whole.  We all agree the wheels are perhaps the most crucial components in the design to reach the intended speeds.  For now we're just have a working concept that may or may not resemble the final design.  The overall dimensions of the wheels however will likely remain the same.   With the size and profile shown I don't believe these wheels will have any more impact on the salt than conventional LSR tires.  As mentioned where the car will run for records is likely to be somewhere other than Bonneville given its current and potentially future condition.  So I'm not concerned about salt damage related rules at this stage.  That may change in the future but frankly I don't see rubber tires advancing the unlimited records much beyond today's marks.  Thanks... Terry.

Offline Simspeed

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Re: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project
« Reply #262 on: September 30, 2019, 07:12:33 PM »
Yes, same here, this discussion might help me better design my next Bonneville bike, so argumentation is good...



(preliminaries, I'm not up to design it proper yet, although engine is done and dusted!!!)

Patrick

Hi Patrick,
I like your design.  2D drawings a essential to good development in my opinion.  3D helps to visualize the design for me and that's why I use it at this stage.  When it comes time to fit the parts and pieces for the prototype stage 2D will convey the necessary information to the machinist and  fabricators for construction.  Thanks... Terry. 

Offline superleggera

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Re: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project
« Reply #263 on: September 30, 2019, 11:28:33 PM »
One more thing to think about amongst everything else:   For non-USA events, what size of an International spec shipping container will be required for the streamliner and its salt bed transport trailer / service bench and the associated cost to ship it at a given weight with basic gear / tools? 
- me: Mark - home: Dry Heat, AZ USA - build underway: J-BFS Streamliner

Offline thefrenchowl

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Re: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project
« Reply #264 on: October 01, 2019, 01:35:08 AM »
In one word, a big container!!!

Since I come from over the pond, my preliminary design is in 2 halves, with 2 bulkheads bolting together in front of the engine = smaller crate...

Freight cost is a function of weight and dimms...

Patrick
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Offline Simspeed

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Re: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project
« Reply #265 on: October 01, 2019, 11:14:41 AM »
One more thing to think about amongst everything else:   For non-USA events, what size of an International spec shipping container will be required for the streamliner and its salt bed transport trailer / service bench and the associated cost to ship it at a given weight with basic gear / tools?
Hi Super,

Yes I did that.  Scaled the car, carrier, and accessories for a standard 40' shipping container.  Since we will be concentrating on the one record there not much in the way of additional engines and such like we see with the Speed Demon team.  I think the one container can carry what will be needed.  Thanks... Terry.

Offline tortoise

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Re: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project
« Reply #266 on: October 01, 2019, 12:02:14 PM »
frankly I don't see rubber tires advancing the unlimited records much beyond today's marks.  Thanks... Terry.
You wouldn't need to go much beyond today's speeds to have a VERY big impact. First LSR over 500 would get some attention. Rubber tires would remove an unknown.  Your design would still have more than enough unknowns.

Offline Simspeed

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Re: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project
« Reply #267 on: October 05, 2019, 01:16:10 AM »
frankly I don't see rubber tires advancing the unlimited records much beyond today's marks.  Thanks... Terry.
You wouldn't need to go much beyond today's speeds to have a VERY big impact. First LSR over 500 would get some attention. Rubber tires would remove an unknown.  Your design would still have more than enough unknowns.
Hi Tortoise,
As true as I believe your statement to be, rubber tires are a big liability in my opinion as we've witnessed for decades and especially in recent months.  From a safety standpoint alone aluminum wheels should become the standard rolling stock for every ultra fast vehicle.  Technology will deliver traction to make metal LSR wheels practical.  I think that will happen sooner than later so that's what my design will incorporate.  If I could race this design today I wouldn't attempt it on rubber tires.  Thanks... Terry.

Offline Simspeed

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Re: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project
« Reply #268 on: October 05, 2019, 02:12:18 AM »
As I continue my research of all things related to this project, I revisited the Liquid Piston rotary engine project for an update.  Carefully studying their literature I discovered that they have built diesel engines of a displacement comparable to the Maza 13b engines.  Their diesel design uses a single rotor displacing 1.37 liters whereas Mazda's 2 rotor displaces 1.3 liters.  Although LP's 1.37 liter is a diesel it uses the same technology as their gasoline engine with a replaceable combustion chamber that allows for higher compression ratios for the diesel pressure fired cycle.  What is important to the Simspeed project is the manner in which the LP rotors can be stacked similar to a 13b 4 rotor with the same overall exterior dimensions in terms of height and width.  Allowing that a LP 4 rotor has the same relative displacement of a 13b 8 rotor.  The overall length of the V.6.0 design can be reduced to 29' keeping the same exterior body geometry.

What's really cool about the LP rotary engine is it's much greater efficiency than the Mazda rotary engine.  Compression ratios can be optimized with better sealing and less fuel and oil consumption.  Both engines have a triangle rotor that fires 3 times for each rotor revolution.  But the LP engine's crankshaft is geared 3:2 whereas the Mazda is 3:1.  The LP crankshaft sees 1.5 power stroke per each rotor revolution whereas the Mazda's sees only 1.33.  The LP clearly has the greater power density from that feature alone.  Apex seals in the rotor tips are a issue for the 13b where the LP's perimeter seals are fixed in the housing with direct oiling provided through housing oil channels.  The LP is a constant volume design with over expansion of the combustion cycle where the Mazda bleeds combustion expansion across the exhaust opening event wasting some measure of power.  My knowledge of such things is limited but I know enough to be able to follow the logic of why the LP design has numerous benefits the Mazda 13b does not.

So...based on the information LP provided I was able to duplicate their 1.37 rotor displacement to produce a 4 rotor model that can be fitted to the Simspeed v.6.0 chassis.  Having done so I'm calling this V.6.1 which has the same hp potential with better packaging and shorter overall dimensions.  The intake and exhaust layouts are my own design but rely on LP's own internal geometry that allows for side port gas flows through the rotor rather than peripheral porting as is common with 13b race engines.  This porting can be flipped as shown in the drawings to allow alternating intake/exhaust routing through the divider housings.  So here we have an exhaust header for each of the 12 combustion chambers and 4 shared intake ports for the 4 rotors that all run on a common eccentric/crank shaft.

Yes this is an experimental engine design that LP isn't selling to the public.  But what about the marketing benefit of breaking the ultimate wheel driven land speed record with their new engine design.  What about the diesel LSR?  Same engine essentially, same slick car, running for a 350 mph record.  Go for the diesel record first and then the UWD LSR on methanol.  I think there's potential there to put together a sponsor package that brings the best engineering, equipment, and funding to the project.  I'd love to hear your thoughts.  Thanks... Terry.

Offline Simspeed

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Re: Simspeed UWD LSR Design Project
« Reply #269 on: October 05, 2019, 02:14:12 AM »
10 drawings total.  Can only post one here for size reasons.