Author Topic: Frontal Area / Cd numbers  (Read 75299 times)

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Offline Simspeed

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Re: Frontal Area / Cd numbers
« Reply #195 on: May 26, 2019, 01:48:26 AM »
you just might be dealing with salt to salt traction

How so Sparky?

Offline Simspeed

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Re: Frontal Area / Cd numbers
« Reply #196 on: May 26, 2019, 01:55:28 AM »
... there has to be new ground broken in how to put power to the salt...
By whose decree "the salt"? If no satisfactory stretch of pavement can be found, lay some asphalt- doesn't need to be durable (as highways are). On flat/level/desolate/cheap land, safely wide (60'?), whatever length (10 mile? 13 mile?). Other 'Unlimited' landspeed competitors will gladly share the costs.

I agree if suitable land was available then a durable surface with a high traction coefficient would be idea wouldn't it Jack.  Frankly I don't see that happening but it's something to consider.  We need a generous billionaire to step up and make it happen...anyone out there know a generous billionaire?  :wink:

Offline Simspeed

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Re: Frontal Area / Cd numbers
« Reply #197 on: May 26, 2019, 02:13:08 AM »
Here is my take on 4 wheel drive using two inboard wheel motors and two outboard wheels with inboard motors using Rob's Carbinite design ideas.  Active aero flaps for increased downforce traction is one big advantage, the second advantage is putting each drive wheel in it's own track on the salt.  Vertical stability is also enhanced with the outriggers giving a much wider track at the rear which Rob and others (the rocket cars come to mind) have proven works to keep the car stable at speed.  The big disadvantage of course is increase drag.  I have no idea at this stage if the trade offs are worthwhile for my design.  The wheel pods would need to be structurally sound and molded carbon fiber should be adequate with brace tubing as shown there to maintain position.  I'm unsure how Rob controls the flaps on his car but I think a electro-mechanical actuators in each airfoil section would work best here with the available electrical power we have on hand.  

This arrangement also allows the use of disc brakes on the outboard wheels as back up to the electromotive braking.  Like with the Carbinite liner full floating axles would be use for the outboard wheels.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2019, 02:19:47 AM by Simspeed »

Offline Frank06

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Re: Frontal Area / Cd numbers
« Reply #198 on: May 26, 2019, 05:08:23 AM »
I too have been curious if salt one foot thick offered more traction than salt one inch thick.

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Offline robfrey

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Re: Frontal Area / Cd numbers
« Reply #199 on: May 26, 2019, 08:40:19 AM »
Sim,
With this design, you can make fuselage much thinner that you have drawn.
Also, you can lose the vertical stabilizer as the wheel pants become the new vert stabilizers.
Wider is better as wing and flap will not need as much angle of attack to generate needed downforce.


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Offline RaceEngineer

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Re: Frontal Area / Cd numbers
« Reply #200 on: May 26, 2019, 09:41:27 AM »
Rob is right on.  The vertical stab is now redundant as the wheel pants take care of stability and CP issues.  The distance between the body and the inner surface of the wheel pant is important.   If they are to close together you can get interference drag.  All this can be refined w/CFD, testing, etc.

Thanks for sharing

Don
 

Offline Sumner

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Re: Frontal Area / Cd numbers
« Reply #201 on: May 26, 2019, 12:25:05 PM »
A couple things to consider:

Back in the day from what I can tell from old video, they for sure had longer salt.  The interstate wasn't there and I think they started almost back near where the truck stop is now.  Craig clipped the telephone poles that use to run about where the interstate is now and ended up in the pond past it.  Even since I've been going they backed up the starting area for the fast cars when they use to run both ways.  Mike has done this at his international meets to make the course longer.  Only problem is that now the cars are starting on basically mud on both ends and can't always use the extra length due to the surface.  Hence the need now to go outside the U.S. if one is really serious about setting a big record over 500.  It is probably pointless to build a car with that capability if one can't also afford to make that happen.

A lot of the traction issues have to be solved with a better solution than one's right foot, unless your name is Bob  :-), and/or tire technology.  You basically have to bury your foot and let technology take care of the rest in the means of traction control and how the power comes on (easier with turbos).  I think that has been the key to George's success, but that is a guess.

Running on either the SCTA courses or the International ones that have been laid out to this point is not land speed racing but drag racing as pointed out by the numbers Bob posted.  At over 400 you are eating up a mile in under 9 seconds.  Not much time to accelerate faster.  Look at the Turbinator's in car camera and watch the numbers.

One other big factor with cars is also the one hour turnaround.  Can you get the car turned around and serviced (intercooler needs is a factor here) in the one hour and back down the track.  A lot harder to make those two back to back runs than one first imagines.  

I think it is easy to visualize a smaller car than what has been run.  I've done it and so have others but when the actually packaging of everything comes into play it just doesn't happen.  Look at the fast cars and you will see that there isn't a lot of wasted space in them.   Costella maybe has been best at this along with the Buddfab Streamliner (131 mph/50cc) along with most of the other really fast cars.  

I'd look at the comparison of the aero of more frontal area and a shorter car vs. a smaller frontal area and a longer car as for as the total drag of both is concerned.  When I say I'd look, I meant this is an area where you need someone very knowledgeable to do the calcs.  Slimspeed (I'd like to use your real name but don't know it) I know you say you can package all the components in the car you've designed but I still am very skeptical of that having been down that road to some degree.  In the side view of your car along side existing cars I can't see a roll bar over the drivers head along with padding and the helmets in use now and the driver still having a slight line out front.  That is merely an guess at looking at the drawing.  Also heat management, especially with turbos, can be a huge deal in a tight car.  George was plagued with this for a while.

It is amazing how much time it takes to build these cars and to get the bugs out and then find that perfect track and weather window to actually pull out a big run regardless of the class one is running in.  This also usually involves a lot of help from others and of course a big outlay of money even running in lower classes.  I've come to realize that at my age (75) time has basically run out as far as ever finishing my car and running it on the salt and I'm still in good health.  It is a huge commitment in time, energy and money.

Hopefully you wont' take any of the above as being critical of your work as I've seen you put a lot into it.  Just rambling thoughts that came to mind.  Good luck and keep working hard at your goal,

Sumner
« Last Edit: May 26, 2019, 12:27:52 PM by Sumner »

Offline robfrey

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Re: Frontal Area / Cd numbers
« Reply #202 on: May 26, 2019, 12:46:47 PM »
Sum,
I’m 53 and I feel my time has run out.

Sim,
I sort of said this before but maybe in not do many words.
The rewards of success in this area of motorsports does not even come close to justify price we pay to do it.

Salt fever is a real illness.

Even if the Carbinitelsr goes 500+ this year (and this is a might big “if”), it was way too big a price to pay. I was way too optimistic on both financial and time projections. Call it “Buyer Remorse or whatever”.
We always think we are smarter and and can do things better or we would not bother trying.
The reality is that it is usually true on stuff like our major ideas but all the other factors such as just being “good racers” and handling logistics all come in to play.
The best advise that I got and give-
You don’t even know what you don’t know.
Now if you give it plenty of thought and still decide you want to do this, we will be here for you.


Rob Freyvogel
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Offline desotoman

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Re: Frontal Area / Cd numbers
« Reply #203 on: May 26, 2019, 01:40:05 PM »
Summers brothers went 425 mph 50 years years ago. We’re all pikers.
We have made little progress with all our technology.


Rob Freyvogel
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Rob, I am not being critical of your post as this is just my opinion on this subject of progress since the Summers Brothers. First, this is an amateur sport = NO MONEY, equates to slow progress. Second, you deal with Mother Nature and every year the conditions are different, sometimes no Speedweek. Third, Running SCTA you only have 5 miles. Forth, you only have a couple of times a year to run on the salt, unless you are a fortunate person who can pay for private time.  Fifth, Salt Gremlins always pop up. Sixth, Tires for fast cars have not always been available over the years. We are lucky just recently Goodyear has gotten involved.

Like I said this is just my opinion on why it has been slow progress since the Summers Brothers.

Most of you know this but for those that don't, if you enter the Fifth mile at 400 mph you have about 9 seconds or less to achieve a higher speed, since you are traveling at 586.67 feet per second at 400 mph. At 450 mph you have 8 seconds or less to achieve a higher speed. Not much time to gain speed for a traction limited surface, and tires that have grown from centrifugal force and have less contact area.

Okay time to get back to this interesting topic.

Tom G.

PS. I took to long to write this and I see Sumner has posted in ahead of me, so excuse me if I am redundant.



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Offline Jack Gifford

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Re: Frontal Area / Cd numbers
« Reply #204 on: May 27, 2019, 01:11:46 AM »
... a durable surface...
 ... We need a generous billionaire...
How durable do you need? A year? 2 years?
Laying a strip of asphalt doesn't require a billionaire.
M/T Pontiac hemi guru
F/BFL 1-mile Loring record 2020

Offline Simspeed

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Re: Frontal Area / Cd numbers
« Reply #205 on: May 27, 2019, 01:58:59 AM »
Sim,
With this design, you can make fuselage much thinner that you have drawn.
Also, you can lose the vertical stabilizer as the wheel pants become the new vert stabilizers.
Wider is better as wing and flap will not need as much angle of attack to generate needed downforce.

Rob Freyvogel
#496
AA/BFS

I don't believe I can get the fuselage any thinner than currently drawn Rob (see attachment).  This cross section is equally representative of virtually every section of the car which is filled to the max with chassis, components, and the driver.  I did widen the wing area to 24" between the body and fairing on each side.

I also did an area calculation with the outriggers in place and the total frontal area more than doubled from 3.60 to 7.655 sq. ft.  All else being equal that would also double the HP needed to reach a given speed with a given Cd based on spreadsheets supplied on the landracing.com website.  I'll analyze to determine the Cd with and without the outriggers to see what's feasible and what's not. The drag penalty for the outriggers appears to be significant.  We'll see... Thanks Rob.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2019, 02:03:13 AM by Simspeed »

Offline Simspeed

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Re: Frontal Area / Cd numbers
« Reply #206 on: May 27, 2019, 02:41:49 AM »
Sum,
I’m 53 and I feel my time has run out.

Sim,
I sort of said this before but maybe in not do many words.
The rewards of success in this area of motorsports does not even come close to justify price we pay to do it.

Salt fever is a real illness.

Even if the Carbinitelsr goes 500+ this year (and this is a might big “if”), it was way too big a price to pay. I was way too optimistic on both financial and time projections. Call it “Buyer Remorse or whatever”.
We always think we are smarter and and can do things better or we would not bother trying.
The reality is that it is usually true on stuff like our major ideas but all the other factors such as just being “good racers” and handling logistics all come in to play.
The best advise that I got and give-
You don’t even know what you don’t know.
Now if you give it plenty of thought and still decide you want to do this, we will be here for you.

Rob Freyvogel
#496
AA/BFS

Thanks for the heartfelt comments Rob.  I recognize the benefits don't justify the cost for most forms of motor racing.  I can see your point about how building such a car is so costly and time consuming as to never be worth the price we as individuals must pay to bring it to reality.  For most of us its an impossibility to begin with unless we put a sponsorship package together that benefits the sponsor(s) beyond the dollar return of the venture's success.  If a sponsor can't parlay a record breaking outcome into intrinsic value exponentially greater than the investment, then its highly unlikely they will gamble the company's fortune for what is at best a dubious uncertainty.  IMHO its not enough to break a record to justify the investment, one must set a new milestone that will hold for years so a sponsor can capitalize long term on the marketing opportunity. Creating a brand around the success of the venture is an obvious investment goal.  Component mfgs can benefit if their products are part of the mix that achieves record speeds.  Name sponsors need to associate their investment with commercial brand value away from the track and apart from the inherent aspects of racing for record speed which is too esoteric even in the best scenario to be of much value to anyone but the people who put in the sweat and effort to make it happen.  Setting a record(s) is the objective for racers, but it's not the story line that sells the project to a deep pocket sponsor and attracts media coverage that reaches the masses with a message they find appealing enough to find favor with the sponsor's brand.  It's the story behind the effort that sells....the speed achieved serves only to justify and validate why the effort was undertaken in the first place.  Thanks...Terry
« Last Edit: May 27, 2019, 02:44:02 AM by Simspeed »

Offline Simspeed

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Re: Frontal Area / Cd numbers
« Reply #207 on: May 27, 2019, 02:56:02 AM »
... a durable surface...
 ... We need a generous billionaire...
How durable do you need? A year? 2 years?
Laying a strip of asphalt doesn't require a billionaire.

Hi Jack...the paving itself isn't the greatest obstacle to overcome.  The land, it's availability, location, cost relative to alternate use scenarios, as well as regulatory approval are all more important in my opinion.  Imagine the difficulty you would face getting approval to lay down 10 miles of 60' wide paving at the salt flats.  The location is probably ideal and would be the least costly to make race ready but that's never going to happen.  The need for a billionaire is influence and the money to fight everyone who will stand up to stop it.  Crowd funding isn't the answer in my opinion.  But I like the idea...a lot.  Thanks  :-)

Offline Simspeed

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Re: Frontal Area / Cd numbers
« Reply #208 on: May 27, 2019, 03:09:18 AM »
A couple things to consider:

Back in the day from what I can tell from old video, they for sure had longer salt.  The interstate wasn't there and I think they started almost back near where the truck stop is now.  Craig clipped the telephone poles that use to run about where the interstate is now and ended up in the pond past it.  Even since I've been going they backed up the starting area for the fast cars when they use to run both ways.  Mike has done this at his international meets to make the course longer.  Only problem is that now the cars are starting on basically mud on both ends and can't always use the extra length due to the surface.  Hence the need now to go outside the U.S. if one is really serious about setting a big record over 500.  It is probably pointless to build a car with that capability if one can't also afford to make that happen.

A lot of the traction issues have to be solved with a better solution than one's right foot, unless your name is Bob  :-), and/or tire technology.  You basically have to bury your foot and let technology take care of the rest in the means of traction control and how the power comes on (easier with turbos).  I think that has been the key to George's success, but that is a guess.

Running on either the SCTA courses or the International ones that have been laid out to this point is not land speed racing but drag racing as pointed out by the numbers Bob posted.  At over 400 you are eating up a mile in under 9 seconds.  Not much time to accelerate faster.  Look at the Turbinator's in car camera and watch the numbers.

One other big factor with cars is also the one hour turnaround.  Can you get the car turned around and serviced (intercooler needs is a factor here) in the one hour and back down the track.  A lot harder to make those two back to back runs than one first imagines.  

I think it is easy to visualize a smaller car than what has been run.  I've done it and so have others but when the actually packaging of everything comes into play it just doesn't happen.  Look at the fast cars and you will see that there isn't a lot of wasted space in them.   Costella maybe has been best at this along with the Buddfab Streamliner (131 mph/50cc) along with most of the other really fast cars.  

I'd look at the comparison of the aero of more frontal area and a shorter car vs. a smaller frontal area and a longer car as for as the total drag of both is concerned.  When I say I'd look, I meant this is an area where you need someone very knowledgeable to do the calcs.  Slimspeed (I'd like to use your real name but don't know it) I know you say you can package all the components in the car you've designed but I still am very skeptical of that having been down that road to some degree.  In the side view of your car along side existing cars I can't see a roll bar over the drivers head along with padding and the helmets in use now and the driver still having a slight line out front.  That is merely an guess at looking at the drawing.  Also heat management, especially with turbos, can be a huge deal in a tight car.  George was plagued with this for a while.

It is amazing how much time it takes to build these cars and to get the bugs out and then find that perfect track and weather window to actually pull out a big run regardless of the class one is running in.  This also usually involves a lot of help from others and of course a big outlay of money even running in lower classes.  I've come to realize that at my age (75) time has basically run out as far as ever finishing my car and running it on the salt and I'm still in good health.  It is a huge commitment in time, energy and money.

Hopefully you wont' take any of the above as being critical of your work as I've seen you put a lot into it.  Just rambling thoughts that came to mind.  Good luck and keep working hard at your goal,

Sumner

Thanks for your comments Sumner...points well thought out are always welcome.  Terry Peterson is my name but Simspeed works just fine.  I did establish a line of sight from the drive's eyes when I designed the car.  First through a long canopy and then the more conventional canopy we see in v.4.4 and v.4.5. drawings. If you look at the chassis minus the body drawings you'll see a full roll cage surrounding the driver with everything properly triangulated and braced.  I haven't shown helmet padding in the latest version but there's room for it.  All the major systems have been scaled in inches to fit in the body shell.  It's not absolute, just a model to work with to see if all the systems can be made to fit and work out design elements for the best potential performance.  Thanks...Terry

Offline robfrey

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Re: Frontal Area / Cd numbers
« Reply #209 on: May 27, 2019, 08:34:50 AM »
Sim,
Are you familiar with “area ruling”?
Where you pick up the wings and out riggers, the fuselage needs thinned.
If you take and cut up the car into 4” thick slices cross wise, then measure those cross sections and graph them, the graph should be smooth. This is important. We could have done a better job with this on the Carbiliner.
Flat sides are always bad even if it adds to frontal area.
You will always be more slippery if shape is changed gradually. IE your wheel pants should be shaped like airfoils.
Eric “Blue” was right when he steered us to the NACA 66 series airfoil. It is extremely efficient in terms of volume vs drag.
The wetted area of car that is laminar flow is only 1/3 of the drag of the wetted area not in laminar flow.
Believe it or not, if you would swell the sides of the car and shorten it, the drag should go down even though frontal area is increased.
You should also be able to lose the supports for the wheel pants by increasing cross section of the wing.
Those supports will be extremely draggy.
With the downforce in the rear, you will not need rear suspension. At least that has been my experience.


Rob Freyvogel
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496 BGS
carbinitelsr.com
carbiniteracing.com
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