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Author Topic: Fuel Shutoff with EFI & Mechanical Pump  (Read 859 times)
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Frenchinjection
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APS-BPS 750 Triumph Twin 775 . 152.35 record


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« on: January 28, 2019, 12:59:41 PM »

I have read all the old posts regarding this for both cars and bikes.  We are returning in 2020 with a compound blown EFI APS-PBF 750.  It has full EFI so the only way fuel can get out of the lines is if the electrics are on and the motor running.  The lanyard disconnects the battery from everything.  No sparks, injectors, sensors, instruments, coffee machine,  nothing.  All lines are either braided or Nomex/Kevlar covered.  Pic attached.

So, question is, what are we switching off on the fuel circuit with a mechanical valve?  Do we need one?


* Forum fuel question.jpg (367.01 KB, 2048x1152 - viewed 82 times.)
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maj
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« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2019, 02:59:46 PM »

I am using a similar system with mechanical pump and EFI
putting a dump valve in so to depressurise the fuel system and isolate all but a very small part circulating fuel through the pump if the motor is turning over   
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POPS
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« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2019, 06:36:51 PM »

Think safety.  Electronics could fail and leave the solenoids powered open.
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revolutionary
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« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2019, 09:31:25 PM »

If you are decelerating with the engine power turned off is your engine still turning over?
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Stainless1
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Robert W. P. "Stainless" Steele Wichita, Kansas



« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2019, 11:31:34 PM »


So, question is, what are we switching off on the fuel circuit with a mechanical valve?  Do we need one?

Hopefully fuel supply to Mechanical Pump... there may come a time when that is important  cheers
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Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, MSA Bockscar Lakester with a little N20 
MSA Bockscar Lakester #1000 my fastest mile 245 and change, 84 ci turbobusa motor... but Corey's 233 MPH H/BFL record is still 3MPH faster than mine.
edinlr
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« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2019, 12:42:49 PM »

I guess the safety issue comes into play here.  If there is an accident or a failure, is there a way to stop fuel from leaving the tank?  Even if the injectors were shut down, could the mechanical keep spinning fuel for a while?  One of the spring loaded Pingel valves would cover this if there is a way to plumb this in.  I would also think there are good automotive parts that could address this too.  Since a bike rider is sitting right with the fuel and does not wear a fire suit, I can see the issue.  I would send photos and diagrams to Pingel and  see if they can address it for you, that way there is no debate at tech.
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Rex Schimmer
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« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2019, 12:53:30 PM »

We have a Kinsler "sprinkler" system on our MC engined "I fuel" lakester and Kinsler makes a really nice fuel shutoff valve which is a three way valve. In the open position the pump is ported to the injection system and in the off position it is routed to the fuel tank so that the pump is not dead headed. Again it is a nice part and from Kinsler so it is also $$$$$..

Rex
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Frenchinjection
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« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2019, 02:21:08 PM »

OK, so a few replies.  Main one from edlinlr is an accident.  Can you stop the fuel leaving the tank? well it depends on how big the accident was.  A 200mph end-over-end will trash even the best made system.  For a less violent accident it depends on what is damaged and which side of the tap, if you have one, the damage is or even are the handlebars still attached?

EFI bikes with in-tank electric pumps have no fuel shutoff, killing the power is the only way.  Any crashed bike with the engine still running needs an "off switch"  this is the lanyard AND the handlebar on-off switch.  Both stop the engine, and if the engine is stopped the pumps stop whether they are electric or mechanical.  

A bike with fuel taps & carbs will leak fuel out of the carbs until the tap is off and the carb is empty.  An EFI bike will leak out of an injector damaged in a crash if there is fuel pressure in the line until the line is empty.  

In reply to POPS.  Leaving the solenoids powered open implies power.  The lanyard removes all power.



In reply to Revolutionary, If we are decelerating then the engine is still running.  If we kill the motor then we kill everything.  The pump will still pump fuel around and back to the tank, but it cannot go anywhere else.  However if the motor is dead but is turning on the over-run, and say a fuel line has failed, then clutching it will stop the pump.

In reply to Stainless, the pipe between bottom of tank & pump is a 10" #10 Goodrich with a torturous route.  Adding 2 more fittings in that line will add 2 more connections that could leak fuel because that is the lowest point in the fuel system.

At present, rule 7.B.2.5 say a handlebar mounted fuel shutoff operable without moving the hands from the grips.  7.B.2.1, 7.B.2.2 and 7.B.2.3 cover this as our Engine Stop switch (operable without moving the hands from the grips) and our lanyard kills everything causing the motor to stop, and therefore pump stop.  

I thank Rex for his input today.  Rex uses a std 3-way Kinlsler valve which is not a shut off but a diverter.  These are accepted as a recognized fuel shut off. However, the diverter is not a fuel shut off as the fuel still runs from tank to pump and back to tank. You use it to stop the fuel getting into the engine, i.e, it stops the engine running. The EFI system is doing just the same, tank to pump to regulator to tank.  If we stop the injectors running the fuel still goes back to the tank but the engine stops.  So is this rule "Engine stop via fuel control" or "Fuel leakage control"?

We are not back until 2020, so there is time and I don't think I am the only one with a question on this.  I maybe one of the few with mechanical pumped EFI turbo methanol on a bike, but not cars, so what do they do?
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Stainless1
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Robert W. P. "Stainless" Steele Wichita, Kansas



« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2019, 11:10:15 PM »

All I can say it did you read the rules....  undecided
Are you in compliance  undecided
Can you shut off the fuel without taking your hands off the handlebar  shocked
I'm sure the rule was driven by someone that has a pretty good burn scar now  shocked
 Dead Horse
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Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, MSA Bockscar Lakester with a little N20 
MSA Bockscar Lakester #1000 my fastest mile 245 and change, 84 ci turbobusa motor... but Corey's 233 MPH H/BFL record is still 3MPH faster than mine.
Frenchinjection
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« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2019, 05:23:42 AM »

Hi Stainless.  The rules have been read many times and we have raced with them using a mechanical fuel shutoff on the Hilborn/Kinslerl system in 2012, 2013 and 2017.  It made sense, 100% sense, because you cannot turn of a mechanical constant flow system any other way than shutting of the fuel.  This stops the fuel getting into the engine which if you run nitro is an absolute must.

Are we in compliance, I'm not sure, because the rule is open to interpretation.  What does the rule actually require as a fuel shut off.  If it is a mechanical tap that stops fuel from exiting the tank then a lot of bikes ours included would have failed back then and fail today.  If it is using something like the Kinsler 3-way valve so you don't dead head the pump then, yes, this would pass tech but this does not shut of the fuel, it only stops it getting to the engine.

Can I shut of the fuel from the handlebars with what we have so far, yes.  No power = no fuel. Can I turn off the fuel in tech if the engine is not running,  No, but then neither can any vehicle that uses a 3-way Kinsler tap.

And despite the continuing dead donkeys, I think this rule needs clarifying.
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Stainless1
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Robert W. P. "Stainless" Steele Wichita, Kansas



« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2019, 08:33:38 AM »

OK... write an email to the 3 motorcycle guys listed in the rule book and ask them if you are legal... if they say you are, put their reply in your log book to take to the races.  Let us know what they say.
They are the final word on whether you are allowed to run or not...  cheers
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Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, MSA Bockscar Lakester with a little N20 
MSA Bockscar Lakester #1000 my fastest mile 245 and change, 84 ci turbobusa motor... but Corey's 233 MPH H/BFL record is still 3MPH faster than mine.
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