Author Topic: Nitrous bottle refilling vendor available?  (Read 2818 times)

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Offline gschuld

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Nitrous bottle refilling vendor available?
« on: October 19, 2018, 09:21:15 AM »
I read through what I could find using the search function, but I was unable to find an answer.

To run nitrous either I’d need a vendor on site to keep refilling the bottles, or I’d need to acquire and bring my own large tank refilling station across country.  The former would be my preference...

Thx.

George

Offline Stainless1

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Re: Nitrous bottle refilling vendor available?
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2018, 09:48:51 AM »
Generally there is not a vendor for N20...  How much do you expect use every run?  As the event gets closer next year you can use this forum to see if anyone is taking a big bottle and willing to share/sell. 
You do not need a filling station, you only need a hose to go between bottles and a scale.  Leave your mother bottle in the sun and put your small bottle in the cooler.  Put your small bottle on the scale and open both bottles.
 I know from experience that a 10# bottle will hold about 12 lbs if you don't leave it in the sun.... if you leave it in the sun it might self empty  :-o
Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, Bockscar Lakester #1000 with a little N2O

Offline gschuld

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Re: Nitrous bottle refilling vendor available?
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2018, 10:12:41 AM »
Thanks for the fast response😉

I was afraid that might be the case. Sure, large welding size bottle, support it upside down in a special rack, simple hose transfer, temperature differential between the mother and to be filled bottles, scale to measure, check.

It’s certainly doable.  Traveling cross country with a huge filled nitrous tank doesn’t make me happy though.

As far as usage, I’m looking at a calculated 1.0-1-4 lbs of nitrous per run.  So with two 2 lbs bottles, I can run one down the run, then swap in the second fresh one for a potential return run.

So I’d need a minimum of two 2lb bottles and the ability to refill them as many times as I’d be able to get runs in. Overall, there are a bunch of logistical hurdles involved with adding nitrous to compete in fuel class on top of N/A for spec gas class.  Luckily I have access to a considerable amount of help available in the technical aspects on Nitrous use, and some hands on Bonneville experience is a very similar machine.

I’d be a first time competitor, so running nitrous in the fuel class would add a whole extra level of complication.  This may not be practical.  But I’d like to assess the situation and logistics before coming to a conclusion on the issue. 

George

Offline Stainless1

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Re: Nitrous bottle refilling vendor available?
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2018, 10:34:53 AM »
George, get a bottle with a dip tube... it does not need to be turned upside down.... that is what the dentists use...  Your gas dealer can make that happen.  
Sounds like you could get away with taking a 20lb mother... if you plan to run gas classes as well, I'd run those first...
I too have thousands of dollars worth of experience with N20  :roll:  :cheers:
Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, Bockscar Lakester #1000 with a little N2O

Offline Ron Gibson

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Re: Nitrous bottle refilling vendor available?
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2018, 11:11:27 AM »
Stainless
Does that price include melted-broken parts :? :? :? :-D.

Ron
Life is an abrasive. Whether you get ground away or polished to a shine depends on what you are made of.

Offline gschuld

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Re: Nitrous bottle refilling vendor available?
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2018, 12:38:23 PM »
Stainless, thank you.  Is your nitrous experience on the salt of regular terra firma related?  Yes. I suppose I could get away with a 20lb mother.

This is all fairly academic for me, I’m learning as I go when it comes to nitrous.  A BIG (probably the biggest) factor on whether I consider adding nitrous to the program is if I can persuade a good friend with 25 years worth of racing nitrous boosted carburated vintage 4 cylinder motorcycles to be my crew chief.

Without his help, I’m WAY over my head on that subject.  Chances to blowing stuff up would skyrocket😬

1000 MCG and MCGPS are pretty attainable for records as it hasn’t caught on just yet.
1000 MCF and MCFPS are currently uncontested I recall.  Any records worth having on gas would be enough for a record in fuel as it stands now.

1000 MCG and MCGPS are my main focus.

PS:  do we have a definitive set of dates for BMST 2019 yet?

George


Offline Stainless1

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Re: Nitrous bottle refilling vendor available?
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2018, 10:32:48 PM »
Stainless
Does that price include melted-broken parts :? :? :? :-D.

Ron

Lots of them before I stopped  listening to the companies that sell equipment... Most of what they do is drag race related... motor needs to survive 5-7 seconds.... My longest button was 52 seconds... 10 lbs N20 through a 65 inch motor.... there is a lot that can go wrong... but when its working it's magic.... love the loud button

George, bike motors in a car J, I and H Fuel Lakester all carbed motors... I hear FI is easier, haven't tried it yet.
Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, Bockscar Lakester #1000 with a little N2O

Offline gschuld

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Re: Nitrous bottle refilling vendor available?
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2018, 07:49:44 AM »
Stainless, I was basing my expectations on the baseline of a potential 160+mph.  So at 100% Nitrous (@50hp level) for 1 mile plus a little before and after is about 25 seconds, plus the run up to that mile with a progressive controller set at perhaps a 10 second(max I could expect to use) gradual ramp up to 100% to give myself a good chance to keep traction.  That equates to roughly 30 seconds worth of continuous full 50hp nitrous.  Nothing is set in stone here...

Yes, M/C wet kits on the market are generally geared toward drag racers and modern sport bike steet racers. 

My guy builds his own systems.  There are certainly land speed racing details to account for, and I’ll be looking for experienced advice if the nitrous plan goes forward.  For example, I’ve read a comment from a NOS supplier that the solenoids, especially the larger ones, can fail from overheating after +/-20 seconds or so.  Never considered that🤔.  Do land racers find this to be a concern in reality.  I’m looking at +/-30 seconds of solenoid on activity per run. 

George


Offline Stainless1

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Re: Nitrous bottle refilling vendor available?
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2018, 02:46:13 PM »
Never had one overheat... N20 going through there keeps the whole solenoid cool, however we have experienced a small solenoid freezing and not releasing when you release the button.... fuel shuts off, N20 does not... want to guess what happens next  :-o
Yea, they never had that happen before.... so much for their kit... we bought the biggest one we could find and never had that problem again.  It took about 2 years for us too develop our own system with jetting schedules and pressures to run without regular failures... Fat is your friend.... and you only loose a few HP running too fat, which is way better than loosing a few parts running too lean.
Without finding my old notes... from the late 90's to 2001 (the last time we ran N20) 50 HP for 30 seconds is about 2.5 lbs of N20 and .5 lbs of fuel to stay at a safe mix of 5:1.  Rule of thumb... 1lb a minute = 10 HP... although better motors make better numbers.
Testing the system outside the motor is your key to success.  If it works when not attached to the motor, your chance of success goes up.  When I say outside the motor, I mean set up your system to fit your motor, then remove the entire system and run it outside the motor... N20 and fuel with the components you use on the motor.  Yes, I mean everything, tank, valves, pump, hoses.... everything.  You are about to go through a bit of N20, but believe me, testing is way less expensive than race motors.
Weigh your bottle, use the best digital scale you can get... a food scale that measures to a 1/10 of a gram should be OK... we borrowed a scale that read .0001 and that was a bit of overkill.
  1. run the N20 through the jets at the temp and pressure you expect  for exactly 60 seconds...your bottle write down your results for each jet... recording temp and pressure, if they all seem to run the same refill your bottle and go to step 2....
  2. run the set of jets for exactly 30 seconds... this is the amount of N20 you expect to use in a run.  Again weigh and record also note bottle pressures as you spray... if you do this in a small enclosed room you will be happier with your results  :roll:
  3.  Now for the fuel... Weigh a container that is fuel safe, and run jets one at a time, note fuel pressure throughout the test for consistency of data. Again, you want them to spray the same weight at the same pressure... write everything down.... write everything down
  4.  Now run them together for 30 seconds... this is the amount of fuel you expect to use in a run.  Monitor pressure throughout the run.
 Write down the weight.  
  5.  Time to do a little math with your data... if you divide the N20 weight by the Fuel weight that gives you your ratio.  Safe/Fat is 5... dangerous/lean is 6.  There is also a too fat that is just as bad as too lean... so you may end up with multiple sets of jets to mix and match to go faster.  Remember if you need more fuel, that is more pressure with the same jet.
Test, record, test record...... Your test setup must be your run setup... end to end
Spark... retard it, how much depends on the motor.  I'd probably start with 5 degrees.  Watch your plugs... consider retracted gap, that eliminates a hot spot
If you have access to a dyno use it...
everything I have written is based on my experience injecting liquid N20.... Your experiences could be different... did I mention test, test, test
Ok, the playing field is level... everyone knows what to do.... go for it  :cheers:
Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, Bockscar Lakester #1000 with a little N2O

Offline gschuld

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Re: Nitrous bottle refilling vendor available?
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2018, 03:33:23 PM »
Wow, that’s some great information.  A lot to digest but I’ll get there.  Unfortunately my nitrous expert is innSC and I’m in NJ with the bike.  It’s going to be an extra challenge...  I’ll need him to come up or I’ll need to take the bike down for proper testing.  Or some sort of face time video conference call scenario.

Things to ponder, thx.  Looks like a 4lb bottle is in order for 50hp.

Do you recommend a progressive controller with automatic timing retard control or is that overkill?

George

Offline Speed Limit 1000

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Re: Nitrous bottle refilling vendor available?
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2018, 03:59:35 PM »
Just like other things in life you want to learn, search for information. This book is a good place to start. https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/nitrous-oxide-injection_david-vizard/1758435/#isbn=0931472164&idiq=28943647. Money and time well spent.

John
John Gowetski, red hat @ 221.183 MPH MSA Lakester, Bockscar #1000 60 ci normally aspirated w/N20

Offline gschuld

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Re: Nitrous bottle refilling vendor available?
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2018, 04:26:31 PM »
Just like other things in life you want to learn, search for information. This book is a good place to start. https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/nitrous-oxide-injection_david-vizard/1758435/#isbn=0931472164&idiq=28943647. Money and time well spent.

John

Done, thx.  I’ll have it in 4-8 days.  I have enjoyed and appreciated all of my other David Vizard books.

George
« Last Edit: October 20, 2018, 04:32:12 PM by gschuld »

Offline Stainless1

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Re: Nitrous bottle refilling vendor available?
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2018, 10:55:15 PM »

Things to ponder, thx.  Looks like a 4lb bottle is in order for 50hp.

Do you recommend a progressive controller with automatic timing retard control or is that overkill?

George

George, there were no progressive controllers  or auto timing retard back then... If you find a controller, make sure it will run for the amount of time you require.  The models that came out after we killed our last N20 engine only ran for 20 seconds.... again it was geared to drag racing and would shut down automatically.... in case you forgot I guess...
Is 2 enough for your setup.... test and see... but I can tell you bottle pressure will drop when it is cold, and it will get cold when it is releasing N20.  It will drop even more if it is running low in the bottle.
Anyone considering N20 should do their homework and testing.... lest you too will gain thousands of dollars of experience with the juice   :cheers: :cheers: good luck with your project
Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, Bockscar Lakester #1000 with a little N2O