Author Topic: Keeping my upgraded motor cool  (Read 8818 times)

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Offline Paul P

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Re: Keeping my upgraded motor cool
« Reply #30 on: October 17, 2018, 12:04:19 PM »
Personal opinion... Run a thermostat... especially if you add a water tank
We ran without one for a lot of years, data always showed the water was in the 220 range at the end of a run... we had a small radiator with a NACA duct, data showed it removed about 3-5 degrees, we needed the room so we took it out.  This is an enclosed car, 5 gallon water tank, both 1 liter and 65 inch, approximately 250 HP (not dyno verified) N2O motors  that were warmed to 100 degree tank water temp and hotter than that oil temp before a run. 
Changed to a 90 inch motor after the 65 inch motor failed (understatement) and left the stock 180* thermostat in.  Warm up time reduced to thermostat opening, about 5 minutes or so with oil pan too hot to leave your hand on it, then allowing the motor to heat soak from there.  Can see thermostat opening and restricting on the data, water 180 to 190 entire run. HP close to the same, ran about 1 MPH slower on gas than the 65 did on N20. 
So yes I recommend running a thermostat to help control the heat
YMMV  :cheers:

That is interesting data.  I think once I get this thing set up I will put it on the chassis dyno and simulate some runs.  I will try it with and without the stat and see what happens.

Offline Sumner

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Re: Keeping my upgraded motor cool
« Reply #31 on: October 17, 2018, 12:12:20 PM »
...You may want to look at putting a radiator in a water tank... search the site for info on that...



We switched from running water from a large tank through the motor and back again to 'a-radiator-in-a-tank' and like this approach much better.  Now we have a low pressure loop from the large tank to the tank the radiator is in and a high pressure side in the loop from the engine to the radiator and back again.  Lots of benefits to this.  More on the build here....

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/Hooley%202013/13%20-%20construction%20menu.html

Not saying this is the best approach for you.  I'd probably start by optimizing what you have, but if you consider going to a larger tank and trying to use it directly I'd consider it for sure,

Sumner

Offline Paul P

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Re: Keeping my upgraded motor cool
« Reply #32 on: October 17, 2018, 03:12:54 PM »
...You may want to look at putting a radiator in a water tank... search the site for info on that...



We switched from running water from a large tank through the motor and back again to 'a-radiator-in-a-tank' and like this approach much better.  Now we have a low pressure loop from the large tank to the tank the radiator is in and a high pressure side in the loop from the engine to the radiator and back again.  Lots of benefits to this.  More on the build here....

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/Hooley%202013/13%20-%20construction%20menu.html

Not saying this is the best approach for you.  I'd probably start by optimizing what you have, but if you consider going to a larger tank and trying to use it directly I'd consider it for sure,

Sumner


I looked at the photos of the build of your rad-in-a-box.  You have a ton of hours in that invention.  I am very impressed by the amount of work and the amount of thought you put into this project.  It's truly innovative.  What is the fastest speed for the car to date?

Offline Sumner

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Re: Keeping my upgraded motor cool
« Reply #33 on: October 17, 2018, 08:56:21 PM »
... What is the fastest speed for the car to date?

The car ran a 249+ record with a 253 exit speed, but that was with the older B motor running a roots blower and using the water tank directly to the engine (before the radiator in a box). 

With the new AA motor the car has yet to be run hard.  I ran license runs the first year with it and ran 218 at 45% throttle on my A license.  We thought we might have a problem so took the car to my place intending to return for WOS but the year rained out.  Went back the next year to be rained out.  The following year Hooley ran 220+ but the course was so bad we gave up with no real run to see what we had.  That was the last the car ran,

Sumner

Offline Rex Schimmer

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Re: Keeping my upgraded motor cool
« Reply #34 on: October 24, 2018, 12:59:22 PM »
It seems that you really don't know much about your water pump. I am sure that Esslinger can provide you with flow/pressure/rpm curves and from these you can begin to figure out what your water system should be and what rpm you should turn the pump. You want the water to travel at the maximum velocity through both the engine and the radiator, you want enough pump and system pressure to both raise the water boiling point and eliminate any potential steam pockets that may occur around the exhaust valves. Be careful using electric water pumps as they are flow rated at zero pressure. To my knowledge only the Davis- Craig pumps out of Aussie land provide flow/pressure charts on their pumps that should be used to select a proper pump. Also "supercharging" your mechanical pump with an electric pump requires that the electric pump should be 20-50 percent larger than the mechanical pump to ensure that it doesn't be come the flow limiting device in the system. Absolutely run a thermostat! Period.

Rex
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Offline Rick Byrnes

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Re: Keeping my upgraded motor cool
« Reply #35 on: November 02, 2018, 11:49:40 AM »
Actually, I doubt that Esslinger can supply flow curves.  I worked with Dan  Esslinger as far back as the mid eighties,  I became very close to the family and they were a great help with my engine program.
If the pump that you refer to is the remote pump the midget motors currently use, I have some knowledge of how it came into being.

This all occured during my tenure at Ford Engine Engineering in the 2.3L OHC design group.  The Ford water pump is nothing more than a paddle wheel, and I was looking for an external pump for my turbocharged 2.5L engine for my Merkur Land Speed Efforts.
I found the external mounted 2.3/2.5L HSC engine water pump.  I was able to have it flowed in several configurations,  Restricting Inlet to 0.98" and 0.84" which  is the id of -16 AN braided stainless hose.
The pump has good flow and there was NO cavitation, up to 9K rpm which was the highest we tested. (pump speed)  This test was in 1992.  The only data I have left are some hand written notes I made at my design intent.
At the design point of  0.84 inlet restriction and a thermostat.
9000 RPM it required 5.90HP    Flow was 74.3GPM at 302f H2O
Pressure B4 thermostat 67.7psi and after stat 39.9psi.
NO I didn't run at this point.  Since I had all the data, I looked at running 1:1 down to .3:1 pump speed.  Actually back then I had too much of an OEM mentality that I was targeting 7000 RPM.  At that point flow was 38.2 GPM at 47.9 PSI.
Dan used this pump and data supplied by Ford SVO in 1992 on their Stadium racing truck.  SVO supplied a few pumps and all the data I had.

Since that time Dan basically reverse engineered the pump castings and produced his version of the design intent.  I don't believe they had water pump flow capability.  They would have used data I supplied.
With the time passing, two fires in their building, and sale of the company to an offshore owner,  I'm guessing that much of the data and history of Esslinger Engineering/Racing has been lost. BUT the remote pump they have for sale is a very good copy and performs well.
Bottom line USE A THERMOSTAT and you should be fine.

Rick

Offline SPARKY

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Re: Keeping my upgraded motor cool
« Reply #36 on: November 02, 2018, 01:27:48 PM »
Stewart does not want their water pump turning over +- 5000 so I stepped my water pump and alt. down accordingly  we are shifting at 82 and shooting for 77-7800 last mile exit speed. 


Stewart told me to shoot for 35-40 PSI between the pump and the thermostat   if it was below that --go to restrictors  you have to eliminate the "boil bubbles" from forming on the head surfaces.


I have been running a radiator in a box system for 10 = years in 2 different cars.  28 PSi radiator cap on the closed 2 pass system.  The radiator box also has a 2 pass system with a 55 gpm electric pump that actually delivers about 20 gpm for the back of the car.  We have another cheap HF Chicom transfer pump that we can move the water from the radiator box back to the rear.


Run procedure:  empty the box with the transfer pump,  warm the eng to 150 degs, kill run the rear pump for 30-35 seconds when we are ready to fire for the run, stop pump, fire the eng, when we are ready to run when the oil and coolant is where we want it 155, turn the coolant pump back on , close the canopy.   Don't ask me why the guy on the out side is responsible for the pump.   

We are cooling a little over 900 hp for about 1 min 40 seconds on a BBC 10 gallons in the radiator in a box and 22 gallons in the rear tank.  easy peasy
« Last Edit: November 02, 2018, 11:11:01 PM by SPARKY »
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