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Author Topic: Keeping my upgraded motor cool  (Read 2330 times)
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Paul P
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« on: October 09, 2018, 03:17:02 PM »

I was a rookie this year at Speed Week 2018.  I bought a car that had a proven track record and spent almost a year getting it ready for my rookie attempts.  I had great success with the car and couldn't be happier with it but (you all know what is coming) I want to go faster in 2019 so I am upgrading the motor for more power.  Now I have built a lot of old muscle cars over the years and I know the first issue you will deal with is overheating.  More power will equal more heat.   Simple thermodynamics.  My poor mans data logger (a GoPro pointed at the gauges during a run) tells me that I am at 220 degrees on water and about 210 oil temp when I throw the chute with my old setup.  I could easily live with those numbers but I hope to bump the power about 20% with better head flow, a better cam, and more boost on the turbo.  I am running an F motor with a fairly stock aluminum radiator with an electric fan and mechanical pump.   Here are a few questions:

1.  Anyone running Evans Coolant?  I am thinking it will help but would like to hear from people with experience before I spent $50/gallon.
2.  I want to add a reservoir/tank to increase the water volume.  Just give it more water to to try to heat up.
3.  Oil cooler?  Couldn't hurt I'm thinking but will it really have an effect on engine temp to a great extent.
4.  I think the electric fan is a waste of time unless you need it to cool between runs but then I need an electric water pump (I do this between runs in drag racing, run the pump and fan with engine off).
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Milwaukee Midget
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« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2018, 03:32:40 PM »

Evans is glycol based - SCTA-BNI won't let you use it.
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TheBaron
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« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2018, 07:46:31 PM »

Add an oil cooler and rig water spray bars to mist water into the radiator and oil cooler when running....

with adjustments, you can find the perfect flow rate to keep the temps where you want them...

At the Reno Air Races, this is what keeps the temps under control at 200 % power levels using only original radiators and oil coolers...

Robert

Red Baron Race Team
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Paul P
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« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2018, 07:44:20 AM »

Well Evans Coolant is out.  Thanks Milwaukee.

Hey TheBaron can you give any details of the spray bars (manufacturer info) and what type of pump are you using?  Any details would be appreciated.  My air intake is under the hood so the motor would be eating the water too.  Not sure what effect, if any, that would have on performance.

I did leave out one detail, I am running an air/water intercooler for the turbo.  It uses 3 bags of ice per run.  Tank holds a total of 15 gallons and the water in the tank after a run is lukewarm. 
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jl222
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« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2018, 11:35:07 AM »

Add an oil cooler and rig water spray bars to mist water into the radiator and oil cooler when running....

with adjustments, you can find the perfect flow rate to keep the temps where you want them...

At the Reno Air Races, this is what keeps the temps under control at 200 % power levels using only original radiators and oil coolers...

Robert

Red Baron Race Team

   Those WW2 engines are my idol. Most  Bonneville racers [self included] still haven't applied some of their tech. 2 stage supercharging

even 3 for the German engines and shifting the blowers and more.

  I have used water injection but have had a problem with water etching the cylinders. We made 100 hp more at a lower rpm with

 water inj. But stopped after problems.

  From what I've read the WW2 engines used an additive to prevent corrosion but can't find info. They even used salt water in the South
Pacific from what I've read. That had to be real corrosive shocked


 Does the Red Baron use this additive?

                 JL222

   

 
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RansomT
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« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2018, 12:06:43 PM »

210 F oil temp?  That's what my Ram EcoDiesel runs with the cruise set at 70 mph.  The ECU starts pulling boost when the oil temps are above 260 F.  And doesn't give you a warning until 270 F.   
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Paul P
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« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2018, 12:16:34 PM »

Like I said, I'm happy with the current numbers but with the increase in power I'm sure those numbers will go up fast.  One other piece of information about the oil temp., when I hit the timing mark for the last mile of the run the oil temp was about 150.  During that last mile that needle was going up very fast.  With the added power I fear I may start the last mile at 170 or 180 and I think it will get too hot.  I am more concerned with the water temp.  That's where I think the trouble will come.
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tauruck
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« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2018, 02:50:36 PM »

This might be a dumb question Paul but what RPM are you reaching?.
Maybe the water pump is cavitating?.
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Paul P
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« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2018, 08:42:10 AM »

The highest rpm I was turning was 7100 although I was targeting 8000.  Didn't have enough power to continue to pull past the 7100 mark but the new motor upgrades and a change in the gearing will put me at my target.  At least that's the plan.  The motor builder has extensive experience with type of build and I am using one of their billet pumps.  He is confident the water pump is not an issue.
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TheBaron
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« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2018, 09:37:14 AM »

Hello all, 

from memory, here are a few recollections concerning  temps and H20...

Water soluble oil was added to the spray-bar water to protect the aircraft fuel pumps and plumbing from the corrosion and friction effects of not pumping gasoline.

Ratio was about 80:1 I think ,,,one quart in 20 gallons of water....

Aircraft spray bars we fabricated from "streamline" tubing and we used commercial spray nozzles designed for crop spraying...
  Round tubing in an X pattern is a good place to start...

Oil Temps:  with mineral based oils, temps under 225 degrees F are fine,,,,225 to 250 are ok but the oil is oxidizing and should be changed more often than normal,,,,
                  Temps above 250 degrees are "cooking" the oil, breaking it down rapidly, and it should be changed immediately....

High horsepower engine need heavier weight oils if operating at high oil temps...

Mario Andretti won his first Indy with the oil temp running 300 to 350 F for the entire race....He said he was expecting it to blow any second, but it never did,,,go figure !

Robert "Smitty" Smith
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jimmy six
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« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2018, 06:46:40 PM »

There could be more help if you say what class as some close off the front of the vehicle. Many of us do not use a radiator of any kind even if the vehicle must have one in the stock location. I have made water spray bars for trucks out of metal tubing with tiny holes spraying onto radiator using a windshield washer pump and tank very successfully a gallon goes a long way. A fine mist does wonders.
As for oil you may need more of it. Where are you reading temp. Good luck
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RidgeRunner
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« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2018, 05:01:04 AM »

     IMHO nothing wrong with oil temps over 212F, helps boil away any moisture from condensation which keeps the formation of internal baby snot at bay.  Over 250F I'd start worrying about keeping it cooler.  YMMV.

               Ed
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Paul P
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« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2018, 09:25:40 AM »

Totally agree.  My issue is how to hold that temp down when the increased power levels will want to push it much higher than recommended.  Like I said in my previous statements the temp rose very fast in the last mile of the run.  Added power will definitely push it too high.

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Paul P
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« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2018, 09:38:56 AM »

There could be more help if you say what class as some close off the front of the vehicle. Many of us do not use a radiator of any kind even if the vehicle must have one in the stock location. I have made water spray bars for trucks out of metal tubing with tiny holes spraying onto radiator using a windshield washer pump and tank very successfully a gallon goes a long way. A fine mist does wonders.
As for oil you may need more of it. Where are you reading temp. Good luck

I am reading the water temp coming out of the motor as it heads to the radiator.  I am reading the oil temp in the pan.  I was thinking of maybe trying small spray bar/boom setup from a chemical spraying rig (shorten it to spray across the radiator) with an electric pump similar to one I use at home on my yard.  The pump will put out 3 gallons/minute at 30 psi.  I don't need anywhere near 3 gallons per minute of actual flow (I think) and I could control that with nozzle sizing.  I'm thinking 3 nozzles with 180 degree spray patterns should cover the radiator.  One nozzle at the bottom of the radiator shooting up towards the middle and one on each side.  What do you think?
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jl222
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« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2018, 11:16:05 AM »

Well Evans Coolant is out.  Thanks Milwaukee.

Hey TheBaron can you give any details of the spray bars (manufacturer info) and what type of pump are you using?  Any details would be appreciated.  My air intake is under the hood so the motor would be eating the water too.  Not sure what effect, if any, that would have on performance.

I did leave out one detail, I am running an air/water intercooler for the turbo.  It uses 3 bags of ice per run.  Tank holds a total of 15 gallons and the water in the tank after a run is lukewarm. 

  Can you put more ice in the tank? We put 10 bags, 100 lbs in our tank but its about 38 gal and a 12 x12 internal size intercooler. 24 lbs boost, no radiator about 24 gal water tank over 2000 hp and no cooling problems.

 How much boost do you have? Bigger intercooler and tank should help lower air temps = lower engine temps.

   JL222
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