Author Topic: Motorized Bicycle on 130 Club Course, questions.  (Read 28513 times)

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Offline augidog

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Re: Motorized Bicycle on 130 Club Course, questions.
« Reply #45 on: July 17, 2018, 01:53:21 PM »
"ultimately, cranks, sprockets, and wheels are levers, and the final ratio, from the pedal to the road, is the only one that matters, at least on paper. In real life, rolling resistance is a factor. I am not very knowledgeable about wheel & tire sizes, widths, and resistance...I only know I love a nice 26" bicycle, I especially love mine after I extended the stays."

Augidog, when a human becomes the engine, I think other variables come into play. Just like the long rod, short rod argument, bicycle racers argue over long crank vs short crank. So, what do I think causes the argument? Probably confusion between spindle speed vs pedal speed. Even the best trained athlete has a sweet spot where they can perform at their best. In cycling, it is the maximum rpm one can maintain at the maximum watts produced for any given distance. So, rpm (cadence) is watched carefully. But what is happening out at the pedal? Using the grinding wheel example, a 20" wheel will travel farther and faster circumferentially than a 10" wheel. This is why grinding machine operators have to increase spindle rpm to maintain the same stock removal rate as the wheel wears. Now, if a longer crank forces the pedal to travel faster per revolution than a short one, does the rider have to generate more power to do it? Will this increase demand on the riders cardio? I maintain that it does, it almost has to.
you'll get no argument from me about that. My simple breakdown of the mechanical aspects was about numbers on paper. Of course the input abilities of the "engine" is the first variable in real life, and at the other end it's where the rubber meets the road. However, how you break down the ratio in between the two is just basic physics, and something everyone here can relate to.

And air...that matters too...notice the motor-paced cyclists are comfortably upright in their artificial environment.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2018, 02:11:54 PM by augidog »
"Get a bicycle, you will not regret it. If you live." Mark Twain (1884)

Offline ggl205

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Re: Motorized Bicycle on 130 Club Course, questions.
« Reply #46 on: July 17, 2018, 02:13:00 PM »
"This is However, how you break down the ratio in between the two is just basic physics, and something everyone here can relate to."


Augidog, I wish this were true. I don't think I convinced anyone in the bicycle community but myself.

John

Offline augidog

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Re: Motorized Bicycle on 130 Club Course, questions.
« Reply #47 on: July 17, 2018, 02:18:40 PM »

The International Human Powered Vehicle Association record --- that's not motor-paced, just a guy pedaling the damned thing, stands at 85.71 mph.

89.59 mph  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

http://www.aerovelo.com/
velos rock! Of course, you folks here already know why streamliners are a different class. I know a fellow who built a body around his tadpole trike using corrugated cardboard and zip ties. His commute is pretty easy. Another cool bicycle thing is gravity biking.

http://gravitybike.com.au/blog/category/builds/
« Last Edit: July 17, 2018, 03:05:10 PM by augidog »
"Get a bicycle, you will not regret it. If you live." Mark Twain (1884)

Offline augidog

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Re: Motorized Bicycle on 130 Club Course, questions.
« Reply #48 on: July 17, 2018, 02:25:31 PM »
"This is However, how you break down the ratio in between the two is just basic physics, and something everyone here can relate to."


Augidog, I wish this were true. I don't think I convinced anyone in the bicycle community but myself.

John
ah...but every bicyclist has personal preference when it comes to standards styles brands... haven't you met at least a few avid cyclists who can make all the obvious correct choices but don't have a clue what's happening behind the curtain? They choose crank length but don't realize they're doing math, or that they're being mechanics. I can buy headsets or bottom brackets from professional shops by brand or style, but if I ask for something by thread size they don't usually know what I mean.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2018, 02:39:53 PM by augidog »
"Get a bicycle, you will not regret it. If you live." Mark Twain (1884)

Offline tortoise

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Re: Motorized Bicycle on 130 Club Course, questions.
« Reply #49 on: July 17, 2018, 03:58:43 PM »
Now, if a longer crank forces the pedal to travel faster per revolution than a short one, does the rider have to generate more power to do it? Will this increase demand on the riders cardio? I maintain that it does, it almost has to.
Same gear, same road speed, a longer crank will go a longer distance but with a lesser force, power required the same. Longer crank arms, however, require more bend in the knees and hips at the top of the stroke, which can mess you up. Generally, longer legs want longer cranks.

Offline Buickguy3

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Re: Motorized Bicycle on 130 Club Course, questions.
« Reply #50 on: July 17, 2018, 04:00:13 PM »
  Early human powered vehicle.
    Doug  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
I keep going faster and faster and I don't know why. All I have to do is live and die.
                   [America]

Offline ggl205

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Re: Motorized Bicycle on 130 Club Course, questions.
« Reply #51 on: July 17, 2018, 05:05:25 PM »
Now, if a longer crank forces the pedal to travel faster per revolution than a short one, does the rider have to generate more power to do it? Will this increase demand on the riders cardio? I maintain that it does, it almost has to.
Same gear, same road speed, a longer crank will go a longer distance but with a lesser force, power required the same. Longer crank arms, however, require more bend in the knees and hips at the top of the stroke, which can mess you up. Generally, longer legs want longer cranks.

Kinematics of this would be an interesting discussion but my comments revolved around energy required to maintain a given mph. It wasn't hard to demonstrate greater energy was required to reach and maintain a given mph with longer cranks. In order to be fair, when shorter cranks were installed, the rider was lowered by the same amount. A Quarq power meter was used to record watt output in five increments of a complete spindle revolution. Averaged values strongly suggested that longer cranks demanded more energy per spindle revolution. Now, a single rider was used (me) for these tests so there may be differences found among other riders with different body types.

John

Offline augidog

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Re: Motorized Bicycle on 130 Club Course, questions.
« Reply #52 on: July 17, 2018, 07:46:34 PM »
Well, heck, I'm gonna have you all pedaling bicycles around if you don't watch it.
"Get a bicycle, you will not regret it. If you live." Mark Twain (1884)

Offline SPARKY

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Re: Motorized Bicycle on 130 Club Course, questions.
« Reply #53 on: July 17, 2018, 08:27:00 PM »
If you ride it on the street, you should have to have lisc., just like a motorcycle, for you and the bike.
Miss LIBERTY,  changing T.K.I.  to noise, dust, rust, BLUE HATS & hopefully not scrap!!

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We are going to explore the racing N words NITROUS & NITRO!

Offline augidog

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Re: Motorized Bicycle on 130 Club Course, questions.
« Reply #54 on: July 17, 2018, 08:41:22 PM »
If you ride it on the street, you should have to have lisc., just like a motorcycle, for you and the bike.
I've maintained a fairly complete set of laws on our forums for some time, SPARKY, and while there are common parameters, some states are easier or tougher than others.

In Oregon, a bicycle with a gas engine 35cc or smaller is a "Motorized Scooter" and no documentation is required. Thats me and this bike which is normally 32cc. From 35.01-50cc is a "Moped" and license insurance and registration is required. Over 50cc is a "Motorcycle" and no way.

Some states are still at 50cc Moped no documentation, your own state AZ has a really MB friendly set of laws, and a couple allow up to 150cc!...others are NO Gas Engines on Bicycles, period.

With all that said...Not surprisingly, even the police don't always know the law, and tons of illegal bikes are on the road everywhere.

But not mine, I build and ride legal, always, because I give a carp. My Tanaka 32cc makes more power than George Wyman's 1903 200cc "California" did, I'm good with that.

This is how the smaller legal engine fits. Notice I'm using the rear "deck" to accommodate the racing engine and pipe. After the races, back to normal.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2018, 09:23:40 PM by augidog »
"Get a bicycle, you will not regret it. If you live." Mark Twain (1884)

Offline tortoise

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Re: Motorized Bicycle on 130 Club Course, questions.
« Reply #55 on: July 17, 2018, 09:10:09 PM »
Kinematics of this would be an interesting discussion
Yes, it's sorta like rod length/stroke ratios.
Quote
In order to be fair, when shorter cranks were installed, the rider was lowered by the same amount.
This puzzles me. A shorter crank puts the foot higher at the bottom of the stroke, so leaves the knee more bent at the bottom of the stroke. Then you lower the seat. Whah?
Quote
A Quarq power meter was used to record watt output in five increments of a complete spindle revolution. Averaged values strongly suggested that longer cranks demanded more energy per spindle revolution. Now, a single rider was used (me) for these tests so there may be differences found among other riders with different body types.
Not to mention different expectations.

Offline ggl205

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Re: Motorized Bicycle on 130 Club Course, questions.
« Reply #56 on: July 17, 2018, 09:24:40 PM »
Kinematics of this would be an interesting discussion
Yes, it's sorta like rod length/stroke ratios.
Quote
In order to be fair, when shorter cranks were installed, the rider was lowered by the same amount.
This puzzles me. A shorter crank puts the foot higher at the bottom of the stroke, so leaves the knee more bent at the bottom of the stroke. Then you lower the seat. Whah?
Quote
A Quarq power meter was used to record watt output in five increments of a complete spindle revolution. Averaged values strongly suggested that longer cranks demanded more energy per spindle revolution. Now, a single rider was used (me) for these tests so there may be differences found among other riders with different body types.
Not to mention different expectations.

Yes, I had to lower the seat when going from 175mm cranks to 165mm. Power begins to develop around 11 O'clock and pretty much finishes around 4 O'clock or so the Quarq power meter said. So, a 165mm crank would be lower at TDC. I was also trying to find how much eccentric muscles would contribute to overall power production for a full spindle revolution.

These tests were conducted to find my optimal position on the bike and what length crank was best for my event (2K Individual Pursuit). In turn, it shed some light on what was accepted as fact. In cycling, it is all about the watts and how long you can hold them.

John
« Last Edit: July 17, 2018, 09:32:03 PM by ggl205 »

Offline augidog

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Re: Motorized Bicycle on 130 Club Course, questions.
« Reply #57 on: July 17, 2018, 09:44:56 PM »
Some pics from 2008
« Last Edit: July 17, 2018, 09:48:54 PM by augidog »
"Get a bicycle, you will not regret it. If you live." Mark Twain (1884)

Offline ggl205

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Re: Motorized Bicycle on 130 Club Course, questions.
« Reply #58 on: July 18, 2018, 02:12:32 PM »
Augidog, I just looked at the last picture on page 1. If you are pedaling to add mph, we need to talk about your position on the bike.

John

Offline augidog

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Re: Motorized Bicycle on 130 Club Course, questions.
« Reply #59 on: July 18, 2018, 03:01:50 PM »
Augidog, I just looked at the last picture on page 1. If you are pedaling to add mph, we need to talk about your position on the bike.

John
Hi John, the pedaling is only to help the single-speed drive get up to speed, then it's into as good a tuck as possible on an upright bicycle. We are looking at universal windshields now, just enough to shield the body of our middle-age overweight rider. Our minimal goal is 1mph/cc, which should be easy enough, and we hope for a bit more, which might not be so easy.

Two things to keep in mind as you look at this project...one, we know this bike and rider position is far from optimal, after all we're working with what we have...two, we can't let ourselves care too much about that, or it will take all the fun out of it.

If ever I was able to purpose-build a bike for this Tanaka, it would be long, low, with a torque-converter drive, and no pedals needed...on the right chassis, with a little bitty rider, the 47R is an amazing engine that could easily hold it's own in the 50cc class.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2018, 03:43:12 PM by augidog »
"Get a bicycle, you will not regret it. If you live." Mark Twain (1884)