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Author Topic: 500 MPH WHEEL DRIVEN  (Read 11274 times)

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Offline Speeditaly

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Re: 500 MPH WHEEL DRIVEN
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2018, 11:49:47 AM »
i intend wheel driven!

Offline POPS

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Re: 500 MPH WHEEL DRIVEN
« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2018, 10:20:18 PM »
Mark,
We have looked at suction.  Would be the best approach in our opinion.  Wings wont work because the air doesn't get organized until 60mph+. With or without Fowler flaps no useful
down force.  Even with suction tires are an issue.  Goodyear or Thompson wont make tires they cant sell for a profit.  Suggest a solution to the tire issue and then we will talk about engines and drive line components.
POPS
PS: We admire Enzo Ferrari "Aero is for people who can't build engines".

Offline harky

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Re: 500 MPH WHEEL DRIVEN
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2018, 03:29:37 AM »
so
as a theoretical debate , it is an interesting concept
A touch the 500 mph wall event  , even for a nano second would be history
to see Valerie
and target 550 here in Australia was memorable, and Valerie was not too far off making history
keeping in mind that Donald Campbell used Lake Eyre , ( near lake Gairdner— well 300 miles away ) in the 60s
and we haven’t gone —- wheel driven — much faster since then
keep theorising
harky
old mechanic
getting slower , but still interested in anything that goes FAST

Offline Malcolm UK

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Re: 500 MPH WHEEL DRIVEN
« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2018, 07:33:20 AM »
as a theoretical debate
60s .... we haven’t gone —- wheel driven — much faster since

@1964 - 403mph; @2018 - 458mph - increase is a shade under 13%, quite some increase when racers used to look for 1% improvements. Both cars turboshaft and all four wheels driven. 

If i have read the thread correctly the plan is to go 0-500-0 (in mph), or 0-800-0 (km/h), avoiding the use of Bonneville Salt Flats, with a wheeldriven vehicle. Is it to be assumed that the motive power can be from any power unit, as long as the engine/motor turns the wheels directly.

Is it to be a dream vehicle, or should it be feasible to build it quickly, because the timeline for someone with a current car getting to the target speed might occur within five years or so.   

We have a theoretical series of base 'facts', and perhaps need these to work with reality if the car evers gets built on this earth. To get to the 'base facts' a number of questions need answers please, Mark.

Track - what length of asphalt or concrete is available - straight and level. Do we know if it could have traction compound spread along the full acceleration distance? Is it located at altitude or sea level. Where is this track?

Power unit(s) - although not being a 'lover' of all things electric should this be the power unit(s) of choice?   

Acceleration - Can a push truck be used, or is the intention to drive away from rest? Do we need the drag racing g-force launch effort for the chosen length of track?

Tires - must be good for 500 without failing/bursting. (This could be from rotational speed effects or surface stresses caused by spinning up). A tyre maker may need to be part of the 'design' team?

Traction - is it conceivable that a drag racing rear tyre might be constructed to give the required traction over the full acceleration phase (and the distance that involves)? If drive is required to four or more of the wheels/tyres, then the body design will need to take that into account. Enhanced downforce, say from stationary (at rest), would require a dynamic 'fan' system or similar but will this need to be controlled throughout every part of the acceleration phase. The drive motor then needs to be controllable, but perhaps not by the driver. 

Measurement of speed - I take it that the rules that those on this list abide-by for timing are to be thrown away and an on board speed GPS measurement system will be used. No fixed position timing beams of any distance interval to be used.

Of course the dozen or so wheeldriven cars already constructed, or are now being constructed, around the world could get to the goal next year if everything goes well in Bolivia or Australia. 

Two pence worth from the UK.

Hoping folk are having a good holiday time.


Malcolm UK, Derby, England.

Offline Speeditaly

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Re: 500 MPH WHEEL DRIVEN
« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2018, 11:37:40 AM »
Hi to All….and thanks so much for your help!
@POPS….I know very well the words of Enzo Ferrari…but I think that aero the work of Colin Chapman is good too! 😉
@Malcom UK.
Malcom…very interesting points. First of all thank you. I will try to give an explanation to your request!
“Is it to be a dream vehicle, or should it be feasible to build it quickly, because the timeline for someone with a current car getting to the target speed might occur within five years or so.” 
→  The complexity and ambition of the project  make it a “dream vehicle”, but this thread aims to define a Concept with a concrete feasibility….maybe with a 5 or 10+ years of work (es: treit & davemport, carbinite or bloodhound…)  …but  with what technology allows us.

“Track - what length of asphalt or concrete is available - straight and level. Do we know if it could have traction compound spread along the full acceleration distance? Is it located at altitude or sea level. Where is this track?”
→My idea is to run in track that are used for standing mile: Texas mile, Mojave, ohio mile…I have said that the ½ run could be a distance that in the same time could permit the acceleration to 500mph, a good shut down area, and the engine stay full throttle only fiew seconds. But it is just indicative   (sorry…I don’t know if it is correct in English language)…the correct length request for the run could be a little higher or even shorter!

“Power unit(s) - although not being a 'lover' of all things electric should this be the power unit(s) of choice?  “
→I am not a lover of electric powertrain too  :-D …but the goal is to hit 500mph…all wheeldriven powertrain could be used. ( i give you a link: https://insideevs.com/electric-dragster-boasts-1000-volts-5000-hp-17000-pound-feet-of-torque/ - In fact, There is an Australian team that is building a sort of EV-top fuel that could hit 387mph or mach 0.5)

“Acceleration - Can a push truck be used, or is the intention to drive away from rest? Do we need the drag racing g-force launch effort for the chosen length of track?”
→We are not make a NHRA run…there are no FIA/SCTA/NHRA regulations …everything is permitted.

“Tires - must be good for 500 without failing/bursting. (This could be from rotational speed effects or surface stresses caused by spinning up). A tyre maker may need to be part of the 'design' team?”…
→OF COURSE!...I have written in my posts that if a tyre maker could be a part of the team should be fantastic…..without a tyre maker able to develop a specific tyre for this performance, the only idea that I have, is to coupled mickey Thompson tyre……. :roll:

“Traction - is it conceivable that a drag racing rear tyre might be constructed to give the required traction over the full acceleration phase (and the distance that involves)? If drive is required to four or more of the wheels/tyres, then the body design will need to take that into account. Enhanced downforce, say from stationary (at rest), would require a dynamic 'fan' system or similar but will this need to be controlled throughout every part of the acceleration phase. The drive motor then needs to be controllable, but perhaps not by the driver”
→I think that the correct calibration/control of active aero or Fan devices is one of the most difficult parts of this kind of project….I agree that the drive motor could not necessary controllable by the driver.

“Measurement of speed - I take it that the rules that those on this list abide-by for timing are to be thrown away and an on board speed GPS measurement system will be used. No fixed position timing beams of any distance interval to be used”
→Ok!

I hope that I help you to clarify my intent….Sorry for my bad English.
I am available for every question!
Thank you

Offline floydjer

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Re: 500 MPH WHEEL DRIVEN
« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2018, 01:30:58 PM »
Frontal area would be a concern considering the massive testicles required to operate such a craft............... :evil:
I`d never advocate drugs,alcohol,violence or insanity to anyone...But they work for me.

Offline 7800ebs

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Re: 500 MPH WHEEL DRIVEN
« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2018, 04:20:26 PM »
got that covered...

Offline RichFox

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Re: 500 MPH WHEEL DRIVEN
« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2018, 06:06:03 PM »
500 MPH cars, running in the proper manner, do exist already. They need the right place to run them. And a Spanish
 speaking crew member.

Offline John Burk

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Re: 500 MPH WHEEL DRIVEN
« Reply #23 on: April 02, 2018, 09:29:02 PM »
Considering that Speed Demon goes 90% of 500 mph with these handy caps .Only 25% of its peak down force at 225 mph . Power limited in high gear . Only about 65% of its weight on its driven wheels . With waste gate traction control , 4 wheel drive and a suction fan for lower speed down force 500 doesn't sound unreasonable .



Offline Speeditaly

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Re: 500 MPH WHEEL DRIVEN
« Reply #24 on: April 03, 2018, 04:48:06 AM »
Hi John and Rich,
I know very well that many car are able to hit 500mph easily. Every time they made a good run we say” IF…the condition was a bit better…IF one day we will have a good salt…” but..How many attemps have they already done? Home many attempts , year after year  speed Damon or Target550 or Vesco  will must make waiting  for  a good salt? I hope with all my hearth that soon one of those teams will do THE RUN….I  am waiting this moment too.
But during this waiting I am trying to find another way….a way that does not bind any attempt ( only one  or two attempt a year!) to the salt lake.
A sunction fan in the speed Damon could be a good idea…but actual aero would be totally destroyed.  I should be redesign the exteriors to make the fan working  and make more horsepower  for the increased Cx…but It could be a very interesting solution.
Thank you.

Offline Peter Jack

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Re: 500 MPH WHEEL DRIVEN
« Reply #25 on: April 03, 2018, 07:29:36 AM »
Why do you want to circumvent existing rules just to reach a number? One of the attempts working at getting there now WILL succeed.

If landspeed racing was easy everyone would hold a record and there would be little value in holding one.

Pete

Offline Speeditaly

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Re: 500 MPH WHEEL DRIVEN
« Reply #26 on: April 03, 2018, 08:22:57 AM »
Mmmm…Peter.  I respect your opinion, but I don’t think that i am out of the rules. I am out of the FIA rules, but a performance is a performance. It is not only a number.  Even if you maintain 500mph for  1000 km  is just a number. The request of speed came from passion…not for  a concrete usefulness. Personally, if we speak about LSR  I think that a jet/rocket car is more “circumventing existing rules …” Every time that someone try something different  easily will came a division of opinions: when craig breedlove  or arfons started  with jet cars, someone liked those kind of vehicle, others not consider real LAND speed cars but only plane that flew along the ground….
This is only my personal opinion!

Offline Peter Jack

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Re: 500 MPH WHEEL DRIVEN
« Reply #27 on: April 03, 2018, 09:15:48 AM »
I'm more referring to your instantaneous reading of 500 mph rather than averaging the speed over a specified distance, normally mph or kph. The instantaneous speed reading removes much of the challenge.

Pete

Offline Speeditaly

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Re: 500 MPH WHEEL DRIVEN
« Reply #28 on: April 03, 2018, 10:39:40 AM »
In 1992 Kenny Bernstein run first 300mph in NHRA history. It was an istantaneous speed but he will remain the first 300 mph  mark in a race competition  for ever and  a great milestone in motorsport history.
I totally agree with you that average speed has a greater charm...but i consider that, the price to pay  to reach the mithycal 500mph mark... :-)

Mark

Offline RichFox

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Re: 500 MPH WHEEL DRIVEN
« Reply #29 on: April 03, 2018, 11:47:21 AM »
I think this forum is about Land Speed Racing. Which is recognized as average speed over a measured mile or Kilometer. The Budweiser rocket car may of may not have run the speed of sound. But he never claimed nor was it ever recognized as a Land Speed record. It was a stunt and is remembered as such. I think Project 550, Turbinator, Flashpoint, Burklands, maybe Nish and others have the potential of a real 500 mph record. Without any actual experience to draw from, it looks to me that Bolivia would be an excellent place to try it. It seems a little hard for people to wrap their heads around Bolivia as opposed to Australia. But that will come in time. Either one requires a great expense commitment. Crew time is very hard to come by even if you have the money to transport the car. Some of these guys here in the valley have so much money to burn. How do we get some?