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Author Topic: 500 MPH WHEEL DRIVEN  (Read 11276 times)

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Offline Speeditaly

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500 MPH WHEEL DRIVEN
« on: March 29, 2018, 09:36:35 AM »
Hi to All,
first of all…sorry for my English. I am Italian!...Even if I write befor now, I am a big fan of landspeed/drag racing and I follow landracing.com from many years.
I write to this forum to discuss with You about my idea/concept to reach 500mph whell driven, for me the real LSR, and the Holy Graal of land racing.
In the last decade, salt conditions (not only in Bonneville…) have been always bad. Three years ago speed week was cancelled. Today a track so good as in 60s or 70s is a mirage: the situation seems  not to become better….We could have the risk to postopone  every high-speed attempt  every year. There are a lot of good project around, like target550, turbinator2, Carbinite, Speed Damon, Burkland411: they all could hit 500mph easily if the conditions would be better, but all this teams try their goal from years with not good results.
So, if you aim to a FIA / SCTA certified record of a two way misured mile with average >500mph,my Concept could not be a good solution, but if the target is to top an exit speed higher than 500 mph in a shorter track it could be interesting.  In the end….the important is to be the first man to top 500mph on wheel.  Mickey Thompson didn’t make an official +400mph two way pass, but we all remember him: but  we all recognize him like the first American who brake that barrier.
So, my idea is a sort of a unlimited top fuel Dragster.
The goal is to make a sort of drag race pass and top 500mph after  ½ mile ca.  So you can make run in many asphalt track…like Maxton/texas/ohio mile or some landing runway in airport.
The project consist in a “mega” dragster with a very  powerful engine  able to run only  10/15 seconds and not 1.30+ minutes like in todays high speed streamliners.
A modern TF engine could output  11000 hp with limited in % fuel, pump, supercharger, rpm and size (and only one engine).
A 100%  nitro engine,  maybe  derived by 1000ci mountain motor without such limitations could make real big   horsepower…maybe 20000+ hp.
Obviously no gear ratio limitations.
No transmission but a multy-clutch system like those in NHRA TF.
A run shorter than  1000mt minimize the size(and weight) of fuel  thank and  the durability of the engine is not so important.
You could have a good shut down area.
Problem 1: AERO.
Mathematically A top fuel shape car with 20k + hp, could top those kind of speed…but  with wings, open  wheels and open engine , I am sure that in some points  air flow would increase over mach level with a big increment of drag coefficient. So even with those kind of horsepower could not reach the goal.
So its is necessary streamline the car. An interesting dragster was the Arivett brother funny car: A real streamliner dragster, with no wings but a ground effect  under body to provide the downforce necessary for traction.
Could be an idea?
Problem2: Tires.
I have no idea if there is a possibility to find a tyre able to resist to this kind of performance.
Any Idea?

What is your opinion?
Thank you to all.
Mark


Offline Stan Back

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Re: 500 MPH WHEEL DRIVEN
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2018, 10:43:12 AM »
I think that car's already been built -- it's called Flashpoint.
Past Member of the San Berdoo Roadsters -- "California's Most-Exclusive Roadster Club" -- Fifty-Seven Years of Leadership  Is Enough

Offline NathanStewart

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Re: 500 MPH WHEEL DRIVEN
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2018, 04:25:18 PM »
^^So good!  :-D :-D :-D
El Mirage 200 MPH Club Member

Offline Jack Gifford

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Re: 500 MPH WHEEL DRIVEN
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2018, 12:31:32 AM »
Thanks Speeditaly for sharing your thoughts.
M/T Pontiac hemi guru (or does guru status expire after 30 years?)

Offline harky

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Re: 500 MPH WHEEL DRIVEN
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2018, 02:09:14 AM »
I was @ Lake Gairdner 2 weeks ago and saw Target 550 , and Valerie Thompson attempt serious speed
the effort and infrastructure is huge ( especially for them to come to Australia)
the Short distance you suggest is most likely possible ( given the speed nitro dragsters get to )
but  the land speed standard has always been average speed  over a given distance
your suggestion gives a good topic to debate
if a top fuel dragster ran 5 seconds more ( and an engine could last that much longer ! )
and had long enough track
what top speed could it reach ??
cheers 🍻
harky
old mechanic
getting slower , but still interested in anything that goes FAST

Online tortoise

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Re: 500 MPH WHEEL DRIVEN
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2018, 10:48:23 AM »
if a top fuel dragster ran 5 seconds more ( and an engine could last that much longer ! )
and had long enough track
what top speed could it reach ??
cheers 🍻
harky

I remember seeing a few years ago, before NHRA shortened the run to 1000 feet, that dragsters hit top speed about 1000 feet down the track and couldn't go any faster. With the shorter track, the cars, I would presume, now run more downforce yet. 

Offline Ron Gibson

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Re: 500 MPH WHEEL DRIVEN
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2018, 11:17:44 AM »
I think the "no faster" was due to limits on tire size, gear ratio and RPM by NHRA.

Ron
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Offline BHR301

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Re: 500 MPH WHEEL DRIVEN
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2018, 11:52:37 AM »
Ron, your 100% correct...and all these rules were required by the NHRA's lawyers.

Offline Speeditaly

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Re: 500 MPH WHEEL DRIVEN
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2018, 04:04:50 PM »
Hi to All, and thank you so much for your replies!
@Harky: Yes! of course!. I have specified in my post that this kind of car could not run a misured mile or kilometre for a FIA or SCTA landspeed standards.
It is the price to hit 500mph. I don't mind if i could not run 500mph as average in a given distance: my "new landspeed car" layout was born because i saw that with today conditions (no more the same as goldenrod or mickey thompson era) this performance is quite impossible. There are many beautiful car now that could top more than 500mph with ease. Let's think about Treit&Davenport: stunning project, 5000hp, fine aerodynamic.....this year could only hit 345 mph, and the car is fully complete  since some years . So..firstly.....Let's top the 500 mark, even if for one second only!... exactly like top fuelers do topping 330 mph at the end of the 1000ft. Your record will not appear on the Bonneville record book, but you will be always remembered as the first man to hit 500mph.
I think that this kind of layout is simpler than a streamliner, beacuse it does not need a big fuel tank, a durable engine (so you can increase horsepower), and you can try more attempts during the year, in a lot of different places.
NHRA Hystory is full of extreme designs examples and experiments: six wheels cars, multiple engine, (Don garlits rules!) etc... A top fuel speed is limited by gear and rpm limit imposed by  NHRA.
For example,Today funny car are usually faster than TF because they have a 8150 speed limiter ..top fuel 7900.
With rpm speed limiter,  limited fuel pump, imposed 3,20 gear ratio,imposed weight, no downforce underbody , etc they have topped 339.87 mph! in 1000 ft......
So...Let's try to remove the speed limiter, and return to 1/4 mile...probably they would already surpass 350mph. Now, take a 2.9 gear ratio (as before the 3.20 rule) and increase the nitro % from 90 to 100%....We could assume a 357/360 mph?...In my opinion even more....Than increase engine size and lower the weight....With some aero intervention, like the mon-struct wing (now prohibited by NHRA)..i think that we have just reached the conditions to top 400mph in the quarter. NHRA Chief Crew themself told in many occasions that 400mph in the quarter is teoretically achievable...the problem is if NHRA let them run the 400....!
BUT...
If we lenghten a bit the track...maybe 1/2 mile....with the good aero (and MONEY!) ...in my opinion 500mph are possible.
What do you think? Anyone have some suggestions? Anyone have seen insurmontable issues? Maybe for the better layout: Is better a top fuel shape (less weight and less aero) or a more streamline shape (more weight, better aero forthe higher speed)....
Thank you very much.


Offline POPS

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Re: 500 MPH WHEEL DRIVEN
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2018, 10:00:53 PM »
Mark,
Here is the first problem you must solve. Getting the car off the starting line. Slicks work extremely well because of the heavy cap. A big show car has enough power to accelerate the tire cap into the pavement. This creates down force around 10 times the weight of the car. The reason NHRA limits the car speed is because the heavy cap will come apart around 345 mph.  So good luck with tire technology.
When you figure this out get back to us.  I have a dozen more engineering issues that will require major funding.
POPS

Offline Speeditaly

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Re: 500 MPH WHEEL DRIVEN
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2018, 04:15:40 PM »
Hello Pops!
I totally agree with you. Tyre is probably the biggest issue. But I think that there are some points that could get easier to make those kind of tyre.
Biggest problem is the big amounth of downforce (10000 lbs in topFuel): it could be possible to use active aero devices, like mobile wings, or diffusers, to mantain the level of downforce constant (or even decrease) during speed increment.  The short period of time of the run could be another advantage: they do not resist at over 500mph for a whole mile!....Nobody in this forum is able to build a special Tyre...I think that the only solution is that a tyre builder like goodyear /Mickey Thompson, or others "joins" the project ....The "Team" has to manage the construction of  an aerodynamic (maybe active aero) mega-power dragster.
Are you agree?

Offline Dynoroom

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Re: 500 MPH WHEEL DRIVEN
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2018, 05:02:25 PM »
Yea Pops, movable aero devices.... could that work?   :wink:   :evil:
Michael LeFevers
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Offline Speeditaly

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Re: 500 MPH WHEEL DRIVEN
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2018, 11:12:14 AM »
Another idea could be a fun like chaparral 2j to create downforce. A little bit exotic solution...but maybe could be work!

Dear Friends, the intent of my post is not to realize phisically this kind of car, but try to identify a different concept of landspeedcar (able to hit the magical 500mph milestone) that, after a "benchmark" of alternative ideas different from the  traditional salt lake streamliner , could have a sort of  macrofeasibility.
I am an automotive Engineer, so i understand every technical debate but I work in style/body area....so I am not a specialist in Aero or Engine; I ask the help of Landracing community to help me to develop a project with solid basis. Anyone could give his help: many of you have a great experience in drag/ landspeedracing. In this phase, money is not a issue (obviously with common sense...)...Maybe after this phase of macrofeasibility someone could decide to invest some money to make the car real!...
In 60s drag racer was convinced that 150mph were an invalicable limit: Today they exceed 335mph in 1000ft, with a lot of limitations.
Let's try to be a little more visionary and try to draw an exotic layout for a 500mph Car!
Thank you so much.
Mark

Offline Speeditaly

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Re: 500 MPH WHEEL DRIVEN
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2018, 11:13:50 AM »
sorry FAN not fun... :-D

Offline 4-barrel Mike

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Re: 500 MPH WHEEL DRIVEN
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2018, 11:20:40 AM »
Sort of like a propeller?   :-D

Mike
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