How fast will the "Target 550" car go???

[Beef Stew]

No, everyone has their own ideas and that is what makes Bonneville racing so great. If everyone had the same shape and drive-line in a car, can you say boring?

Project 550 keeps breaking parts made of unbreakable unobtanium. Seems to me, that a design change may be needed. A little suspension may, or may not cure the problem. No need to change the body shape, or the engine design or fuel, to add suspension.

For me, racing for records is about setting records. YMMV.

Have a nice day 

[kiwi belly tank]

No, everyone has their own ideas and that is what makes Bonneville racing so great. If everyone had the same shape and drive-line in a car, can you say boring?

Project 550 keeps breaking parts made of unbreakable unobtanium. Seems to me, that a design change may be needed. A little suspension may, or may not cure the problem. No need to change the body shape, or the engine design or fuel, to add suspension.

For me, racing for records is about setting records. YMMV.

Have a nice day 

Since you allude to know what their problem is maybe you should share with us your experience with racing streamliners?
  Sid.

[wobblywalrus]

It is possible to put a bike or car on a dyno and to simulate a full length race from what I read.  That would allow testing in more controlled conditions.

[SPARKY]

Is the drivetrain "married or divorced"

[Sumner]

It is possible to put a bike or car on a dyno and to simulate a full length race from what I read.  That would allow testing in more controlled conditions.

I could see that to some degree but can't see how it will simulate wheel slippage and such, which is what might be breaking parts as the tires loose and gain traction and the associated shock loads.  Suspension could help this if it helped keeping the tires hooked up, but I can't believe any suspension can react fast enough to eliminate that as you approach 300 and above.  Traction control can also help this same situation to some degree.

To the comment about Tom Burkland running less than 50% throttle on his 400+ runs you have to remember that for the really fast cars the whole run is a drag race to the 5 mile or beyond if it is for a FIA record.  Add weight for more traction and you are accelerating more weight which is going to effect the rate of acceleration.  1/4 mile guys try and make the car as light as possible usually.  Loose weight and you accelerate faster but don't have the weight needed for traction at the higher speeds when the car hits the aero wall.  Tom ran a lot of spreadsheets trying to balance the whole equation.

I have a spreadsheet here where you can see the weight needed on the drive wheels for any particular car....

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/bville-spreadsheet-index.html

One way around this that some are exploring is movable wings that can apply more down-force as the car reaches higher speeds without the handicap of more weight in the car.  Probably a good idea but one that has to be approached with caution as the faster the car goes the down-force goes up exponentially with the same wing angle.  You then risk overloading the tires and they could blow.  I'd think one would need a computer that would control the wing getting data from load sensors and wheel speed sensors to see loss of traction in real time.  

Very few people have put down runs over 400 and there is a reason...it ain't easy.  Remember all the parts George broke also?  Going to more speeds in the transmission which reduced shock loading on the shifts helped them a lot.  My guess is that with the use of the turbo and smaller motor they can dial in power needed more accurately which also is probably easier on the parts.

Just my opinion,

Sumner

[salt]

Watching the trials and tribulations of Target 550 makes me appreciate the successful efforts of the Brits in the late Thirties and Forties all the more, as well as other multi-engine 'liners (Summers Bros., Thompson father/son and Burkland come to mind). They all proved that it can be done.
I just hope Target 550 doesn't end up like the Herbert/Steen 'liner . . .

[Sumner]

Watching the trials and tribulations of Target 550 makes me appreciate the successful efforts of the Brits in the late Thirties and Forties all the more, as well as other multi-engine 'liners (Summers Bros., Thompson father/son and Burkland come to mind). They all proved that it can be done.
I just hope Target 550 doesn't end up like the Herbert/Steen 'liner . . .

Agreed but some of those records where just over 400.  The HP needed to the ground really jumps over that.

Let's say that we have a car that needs 1800 HP to run 400.  That same care will need almost 2600 HP to run 450, about what might be the case with Speed Demon and Tom's car that ran 450.  Now to run 500 the same car needs to make 3500 HP.  Not just make the HP but get it to the ground and get the car to the end of the track before running out of track.  5 or 7 miles can be an extremely short distance once you start running over 400.  The jet thrust cars that have run well over 400 didn't have to address the traction side of the equation which is huge.

These guys are trying to make history under an extremely difficult situation.

Sumner

[desotoman]

Project 550 keeps breaking parts made of unbreakable unobtanium.

Hi Beef Stew,

Where did you hear the parts were made of unbreakable unobtanium? The tail shaft that broke was a stock B&J item. The blower that went out of time and went boom was factory Whipple timing. The ring and pinons are Aero Gear stocking items. Some different shafts had to be made to make them work. Dropping a valve, a fuel pump going south, and a clutch going out in Australia is just part of racing, no special parts there.

In racing there is no such thing as an unbreakable part, at least that I know of,  that is why your statement confuses me.

For me, racing for records is about setting records. YMMV.

Again I am confused on your statement, why would they take the car to Australia if they had no intention of setting a record. 

Have a nice day 

I will thanks.

Tom G.

[Seldom Seen Slim]

In re: Driver or parts reacting fast enough at speed.  Sumner said:  "...Traction control can also help this same situation to some degree."

Last SW when George Poteet ran the car down the course on that 453.876 exit run -- I was standing outside at the 3 mile and listening.  The car sounded -- crappy.  The engine was spitting, farting and seemed to miss a beat here and there and in general I wondered if it'd be going boom at any second.

Nah - that's what a whole bunch of MoTeC and other wondrous devices make the engine do so that the car can use everything possible to gain speed under the wide name of engine and traction and everything control.  Looking at the time slip I'd say that "to some degree" might be an understate,ent here.

[John Burk]

Turbos and preprogramed waste gates as traction control .

[Eddieschopshop]

Traction control can be real hard on motors,  (may contribute to some of speed demons issues with motors in my opinion but hey it has to be done)  The ign and fuel cutting in and out makes bad things happen.  One of the reasons I dont' run mine.   I have it in the system but don't give it any control.  Instead I choose to use the wastegates to run a set plan for the run.  

I think Target is just going through the new car blues. Compounded by conditions and a very heavy car with a lot of moving parts.  As Willi said gives more appreciation for the early multiengine efforts.   It remains to be seen what targets true potential may be.  For me cost dictated nearly the entire plan for my effort.  even the four wheel drive,  I can't afford to shred tires the way speed demon and some of other cars do.  

I wondered about the cost and effort of shipping a car that has struggled with breakage issues all the way down south.  But hey if they aren't able to do what they want with bville conditions what choice was there.  We all feel the time slipping by and for the big players the chance to be the "first" to 500 is a major factor.  

They may have to change the name to target 400 though.  Walk before you run...

[Paulin adelaide]

It is my opinion that there may have been a gentlemans agreement to run on the FIM Course .
With five and a half mile run up to the timed mile it certainly may have been easier on the drive train .

[Beef Stew]

Since you allude to know what their problem is maybe you should share with us your experience with racing streamliners?
  Sid.

From reading  Freud's reports it seems like they are breaking drive line parts.. Back in the 1960s I was involved with a FoMoCo sponsored  drag car built by Performance Associates. The car  held the record both ways (speed & e.t.). Their problem was they were sometimes getting rear axel bounce. They were breaking 9 inch differentials and twisting 31 spline axels—with a single 4 barrel 289. It doesn't take  much bounce to trash parts, including those made with, sarcasm alert, unbreakable unobtainium.

In the early '60s I was talking to an engineer from Crucible. He said that the best steel was hard as glass (stiffness) and as soft as lead (resilience).  Crucible's Hy Tuf was used for aircraft landing gear. Speciality metals for aircraft and racing have been around for a long, long time, including unobtanium.

BTW Sid, no streamliners, my SCTA records were all set with roadsters. Since then it's been AHRA, NHRA and USAC.

[racergeo]

   O.K. I hold the opinion that if the torque is split between 2 diffs. each gets 50%. If i'm wrong then that's to d@mn bad. I say my reply 19 makes perfect sense. I was funnin' about Alan Johnson, because as a frequent winner in the NHRA nostalgia series Les is totally familiar with slider clutches and NITRO. Fact is they had to amend there rules because he out smarted them. He also cuts a mean light! Still has plenty of power to get it done and way less complex. 50% less chance of parts breakage. So it only goes 480 mph in Au. Oh, I'm only thinking 20-30% pop, not enough to burn holes in pistons or bang the blower every run.  George

[Stainless1]

I believe Cory told me a floater came apart in the clutch, jammed in the bellhousing, the motor kept churning, things started welding, then it stuck and sheared the bell off the motor. 
Car sounded great on the runs, Les got the car stopped well with both problems, Marlo wanted to see a parachute test at 400, that was the purpose of the trip.  Of course a time slip with a 475 - 5xx would have been spectacular.