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Author Topic: UK Lakester build G/GL  (Read 15600 times)
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Lemming Motors
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« Reply #150 on: November 09, 2018, 04:50:24 AM »

Thanks Stainless, Sid
My comparisons were more for amusement than design philosophy - I hope its not a grenade.

I do appreciate steering geometry - I was assuming that Stiletto did not have adjustable steering arm angles because 'they' did not think Ackermann was important. I wasn't ignoring it, simply curious, and the comments have reinforced the need for it.

There seems to be a common reference to adding lead at the front for ballast to put some weight on the front wheels and I figured that a bit more chassis would help that. If I am wrong then there could well be a chassis stretch in its future.

I will be testing the potential lemon in the UK on disused airfields and on Pendine Sands (there are a couple of annual events) - yes these will be low speed events with road gearing (ca. 100 - 150 mph) and initially running without body work so if there are handling / driving mistakes I can address them before investing time in the body - which will probably introduce other mistakes. Then run again locally.

After hundreds of hours reading build threads, and responses to my own questions and comments, it is clear that there are several areas that I need to commit to that fall into two very distinct camps and both camps are right as they have results to back up their designs. I don't and unfortunately somewhere along the way have to bite a bullet and build something.

I do sincerely appreciate the advise and the occasional debate it creates and will continue to chip away at the Lakester.
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A Bonneville Lakester please barman.
Certainly sir; a lick of salt, a sip of gas and a twist of Lemming. More Lemming sir?
Just a squeeze.

A Squeeze of Lemming it is sir.
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« Reply #151 on: November 09, 2018, 08:44:24 AM »

Hey Sid:

Lump me in with Neil on the need for Ackerman in a lakester (probably other classes too but we are talking lakesters here). My first G lakester had zero Ackerman as have all other race cars I have had for road racing. Reducing rolling resistance was very important to me and some degree of Ackerman could have possibly aided in this. But straight line stability was more important. I decided to go with what had worked for my road racing cars and built in zero Ackerman and the car handled fine at speeds occationally over 230 mph. My new car has some Ackerman but only because my front wheel diameter is so small. Lastly, I see no downside to having some Ackerman but under wet or lose surface conditions, while having to steer the car a bit more than you like, it could degrade straight line stability by introducing toe-out. I keep an open mind on benefits of Ackerman for my car and would love to engage in an off line discussion on the subject.

John
« Last Edit: November 10, 2018, 10:42:31 AM by ggl205 » Logged
ronnieroadster
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« Reply #152 on: November 09, 2018, 03:18:44 PM »

  All the above is interesting reading and since my car which started life as a lakester which we eventually converted to rear engine modified roadster has been successful on the salt in poor conditions and as of this year much better conditions some things learned relate to these surface conditions. When we went to the rigid front suspension and increased the wheel base now 141-7/8 inches to meet the class requirements I made sure Ackerman was considered {thanks to Sids guidance} when making the front axle steering arms.  Next big area of attention was the center of pressure and center of gravity for the car.  After many days working with the car on scales as it would sit at the starting line ready to make a pass the final CP/CG numbers were surprising front axle to rear axle weight in the car is close rear axle weight is only 150 pounds higher than the front.  Traction on the salt being a concern I was hesitant to run the car with the weight difference needed using the CP/CG calculations.  However on last years poor surface the car was sideways at 209 MPH and with very little effort easy to control it did not spin around Im sure if the CP/CG was not part of this build the car would have gone around in circles and who knows what else might have happened. On those poor conditions my son and I were able to get our Red hats.  My suggestion is to pay attention to the CP/CG do not be concerned with how much weight is on the front axle {your going to be adding a lot} locate the front axle where its safe and easier to fell where your going I would rethink its present location.
 Good luck.
    Ronnieroadster
« Last Edit: November 09, 2018, 05:43:19 PM by ronnieroadster » Logged

Working in the shop I use the 'F' word a lot. No not that word these words Focus and Finish go Fast and Flathead Ford!
 ECTA  XF/BGRMR Record 179.8561
 LTA    XF/BGRMR  Record 200.921 First  Ford Flathead Roadster to hit 200 MPH July 2018
 SCTA  XF/BGRMR Record 195.650
 SCTA  XXF/BGRMR Record 216.131 plus a Red Had
"Life Memeber of the Bonneville 200 MPH Club"
Lemming Motors
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« Reply #153 on: November 12, 2018, 11:07:27 AM »

Thanks RonnieRoadster. That is one quick flathead!

When you refer to the rigid front axle do you mean a hot rod gasser style tube axle instead of independent front suspension or do you mean no front suspension at all?

The front axle location is something that has kept me up at night for a very long time and I have introduced to the thread recently to solicit feedback. As a result of the comments I am reworking my brain a little and tweaking some of the decisions.

I will have a gasser style straight tube axle, 4 bars and coil overs activated by push rods. The steering will almost certainly be a slow rack attached to the axle and the column in a much flatter plane than originally conceived. To accommodate the column will necessitate moving the front axle forward 12- 18"  shocked

John
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A Bonneville Lakester please barman.
Certainly sir; a lick of salt, a sip of gas and a twist of Lemming. More Lemming sir?
Just a squeeze.

A Squeeze of Lemming it is sir.
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« Reply #154 on: November 12, 2018, 03:23:01 PM »

Thanks RonnieRoadster. That is one quick flathead!

When you refer to the rigid front axle do you mean a hot rod gasser style tube axle instead of independent front suspension or do you mean no front suspension at all?

The front axle location is something that has kept me up at night for a very long time and I have introduced to the thread recently to solicit feedback. As a result of the comments I am reworking my brain a little and tweaking some of the decisions.

I will have a gasser style straight tube axle, 4 bars and coil overs activated by push rods. The steering will almost certainly be a slow rack attached to the axle and the column in a much flatter plane than originally conceived. To accommodate the column will necessitate moving the front axle forward 12- 18"  shocked

John


   

   Hi John
     Oh the joy of building a race car from the ground up our brains will always be working overtime thinking the numerous steps needed.  Originally I had a suspension using an original Ford 1937 tube axle with the standard type Ford cross spring, hair pin radius rods and tube shocks overall identical to what i use on my Hot Rods. I wanted my race car to be a more traditional build so using the Ford design and parts worked well up to the 180 MPH range then i began to get crazy about going faster thus the front axle change. So part of the improvements on the race car we redesigned the front axle to a solid configuration no suspension at all I must add Sid was a big help in guiding me on the potential of the changes. I found whether running the car on the salt or the runways events held in our area the lack of front suspension was not an issue.  This allowed me to better balance the car with the room now available where the front spring and shock mounts were once located. Also an added bonus is the reduced amount of stuff hanging in the wind resulting in less frontal drag.
 Ronnieroadster
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Working in the shop I use the 'F' word a lot. No not that word these words Focus and Finish go Fast and Flathead Ford!
 ECTA  XF/BGRMR Record 179.8561
 LTA    XF/BGRMR  Record 200.921 First  Ford Flathead Roadster to hit 200 MPH July 2018
 SCTA  XF/BGRMR Record 195.650
 SCTA  XXF/BGRMR Record 216.131 plus a Red Had
"Life Memeber of the Bonneville 200 MPH Club"
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« Reply #155 on: November 15, 2018, 01:47:09 PM »

Ron has been implementing some of my suggestions over the last three years that has given them a bunch more speed with no hp increase. I've been doing this for other salt racers for 30 years now with everything from door cars to streamliners with good results but my sound advice is just that, advise! What you do with it is totally up to you.
You can see so many race cars on the salt with poorly set up front ends & that can mean the difference between correcting it or crashing it if it gets a little out of shape & the biggest mistake is scrub radius, take a look next time you're there.
We run on a surface that is slick & usually rough so blacktop geometry is undesirable & if you find yourself going into turn one at Bonneville, you just became a passenger.
  Sid.
   
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Lemming Motors
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« Reply #156 on: November 26, 2018, 08:56:36 AM »

Thanks Sid, RR

I have ordered some parts to start the front axle. In consideration of the advise received I have made a slight design change - the front axle is moving forward. While still down the rabbit hole I explored some slightly wild ideas for the steering column to rack geometry but have settled on the axle relo. It solves a number of steering questions - it is so easy to get locked into a vision. That results in a 140 - 150" wheel base now - things like radiator location may affect the motor location hence the slightly vague dimension.

With the build underway a visit to SW 2019 will be much more informative than my 2017 trip - I am increasingly more aware of what I don't know but there is still a lot I don't know that I don't know.


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A Bonneville Lakester please barman.
Certainly sir; a lick of salt, a sip of gas and a twist of Lemming. More Lemming sir?
Just a squeeze.

A Squeeze of Lemming it is sir.
Lemming Motors
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« Reply #157 on: December 05, 2018, 01:15:01 PM »

Thinking about the motor location (starting work rear of the firewall) I am pondering the radiator. Can anyone comment on radiator size, the pros and cons of the rad being in a water jacket or simply having fans blowing like crazy through a large rad. For a n/a 2 litre what would the rad size be - is there a reference anywhere to help with this?
Thanks
John
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A Bonneville Lakester please barman.
Certainly sir; a lick of salt, a sip of gas and a twist of Lemming. More Lemming sir?
Just a squeeze.

A Squeeze of Lemming it is sir.
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« Reply #158 on: December 05, 2018, 03:41:15 PM »

Thinking about the motor location (starting work rear of the firewall) I am pondering the radiator. Can anyone comment on radiator size, the pros and cons of the rad being in a water jacket or simply having fans blowing like crazy through a large rad. For a n/a 2 litre what would the rad size be - is there a reference anywhere to help with this?
Thanks
John


   J ohm since I run a Flathead Ford which were notorious to overheating I found a large water tank worked perfectly to keep the block from getting to hot. I would be suprised you would need any type of radiator with the engine your going to run. many of us just use water tanks. My water tank is home made it fits perfectly in the tight confines of the area which is similar to your location behind the driver its 17 gallons capacity which also helps with the CP/CG measurements needed for a safe handling car at high speed. One of my learning curves was discovering the not round water tank will not handle pressure which in my application was not a problem once i discovered this little detail. I did consider a radiator in a tank idea but decided to just do the water tank it was a lot easier for me to fit the limited space i had available for the cooling system with the odd shaped tank i made. I dont use any fans since the space is limited theres no space for them however if i need to take heat out of the water i added two fitting to the tank so i can pump water out and return the water thats circulating in a coil of copper tubing which sits in ice waterin an old cooled this simple device drops the coolant temps nicely so we can run again if need be.
    Ronnieroadster
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Working in the shop I use the 'F' word a lot. No not that word these words Focus and Finish go Fast and Flathead Ford!
 ECTA  XF/BGRMR Record 179.8561
 LTA    XF/BGRMR  Record 200.921 First  Ford Flathead Roadster to hit 200 MPH July 2018
 SCTA  XF/BGRMR Record 195.650
 SCTA  XXF/BGRMR Record 216.131 plus a Red Had
"Life Memeber of the Bonneville 200 MPH Club"
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« Reply #159 on: December 06, 2018, 11:32:10 AM »

Thanks RR

I love the idea of an external tank cooling circuit. Do you take it below ambient temperature to take to the line?

I am assuming those are US gallons so if my math is right your water tank is potentially 24 inches by 13 inches x 13 inches or a combination thereof to ~ 4,000 cubic inches and therefore weighs 150 lbs. I guess if the car had an electric water pump switched via the engine temp it could draw from the resevior as required and won't raise that volume of water to boiling point in the few minutes of running(?). Is that why you run unpressurised or is that a flat head thing?

A friend has a V8 60 in a small '50s British classic / hotrod that had over heating problems - tried fans, tried shrouding and all sorts and in the end a bigger radiator core nailed it - even when towing the teardrop.

That would be a far greater volume of water than a rad in tank too - is there a risk of running too cold or does the engine thermostat take care of that  - I can imagine it cycling a little with that volume of water?
So it's 2 pints per cheers 68 times to make 136 pints in total (17 gallons - or do you run water in the tank - I guess you guys dont drink warm beer?)

John
UK - home of the ambient cellar temperature pint of 'real' ale
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A Bonneville Lakester please barman.
Certainly sir; a lick of salt, a sip of gas and a twist of Lemming. More Lemming sir?
Just a squeeze.

A Squeeze of Lemming it is sir.
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« Reply #160 on: December 06, 2018, 10:32:58 PM »

John the water temp is ambient when we run on the salt to keep the sun from heating the water we place a tarp over the body of the race car so theres no heat transfer. The electric water pumps i use are controlled by the driver. Prior  to the run I do warm up the engine a bit and once the run is completed i shut the engine off but i keep the water pumps on so theres no high temperature spike in the engine. No thermostats are used being a flathead i prefer flooding the block with as much water as possible to keep the temps down we have found its easy to crack these old blocks if things get to hot.  Overall the water tank shape follows the upper engine cover so the sides are arched in shape  as high as possible with a flat top for the filler and inlet/outlet for the external cooling system. The tank sides are a radius shape that follow the body which is an original aluminum air plane drop tank from WW2. The water tank is also shaped like the letter L with the lower leg of the L pointing forward this allowed me to utilize all the space possible for capacity. My rear firewall is not straight up and down it follows the angle of the drivers seat back and the lower roll cage support.  Now about running to cold most racers i talk to prefer a cool running engine i know my combination after a three mile run i usually see 180 degrees on the runways maybe 160.  The one item we do heat is the engine oil I use heater built into the oil pan to put heat in the oil prior to running
 Ronnieroadster
« Last Edit: December 06, 2018, 10:36:53 PM by ronnieroadster » Logged

Working in the shop I use the 'F' word a lot. No not that word these words Focus and Finish go Fast and Flathead Ford!
 ECTA  XF/BGRMR Record 179.8561
 LTA    XF/BGRMR  Record 200.921 First  Ford Flathead Roadster to hit 200 MPH July 2018
 SCTA  XF/BGRMR Record 195.650
 SCTA  XXF/BGRMR Record 216.131 plus a Red Had
"Life Memeber of the Bonneville 200 MPH Club"
Lemming Motors
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« Reply #161 on: December 07, 2018, 04:36:19 AM »

Brilliant, thank you.  cheers cheers cheers cheers
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A Bonneville Lakester please barman.
Certainly sir; a lick of salt, a sip of gas and a twist of Lemming. More Lemming sir?
Just a squeeze.

A Squeeze of Lemming it is sir.
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« Reply #162 on: December 07, 2018, 08:14:56 AM »

John, without the knowledge present on this forum building any LSR project would be a nightmare.
I bet you're glad you joined?.  cheers cheers cheers cheers
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Lemming Motors
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« Reply #163 on: December 07, 2018, 10:13:28 AM »

I read everything on several build threads and searched several areas of concern before committing to the build. I have had a rule book since 2015 so a little slow to get started. The build started early this year and I have asked naive questions and had fantastic support on this forum. The best 1 day 23 hours 11 minutes I have invested in the project so far - that is certain.
John
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A Bonneville Lakester please barman.
Certainly sir; a lick of salt, a sip of gas and a twist of Lemming. More Lemming sir?
Just a squeeze.

A Squeeze of Lemming it is sir.
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Robert W. P. "Stainless" Steele Wichita, Kansas



« Reply #164 on: December 07, 2018, 10:26:21 AM »

Hopefully you have been reading a lot of other build diaries and ingesting all the cooling information out there.  We never used a thermostat until we ran a Busa motor and in a rush, didn't take it out... our cooling improved dramatically... I strongly recommend running one.  In a lakester the best you can hope for is water in a tank that stays close to ambient before you run.  We warm up until the water out hose is hot and then let the motor heat soak. We have a 5 gallon water tank... so far it has been enough but we are close to needing more.... and yes, I think I'm leaving room for a couple more gallons in the future...
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Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, MSA Bockscar Lakester with a little N20 
MSA Bockscar Lakester #1000 my fastest mile 245 and change, 84 ci turbobusa motor... but Corey's 233 MPH H/BFL record is still 3MPH faster than mine.
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