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Author Topic: UK Lakester build G/GL  (Read 108545 times)

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Offline fordboy628

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Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
« Reply #180 on: December 12, 2018, 10:34:29 AM »

Now that the water pump pulley is redundant (on paper at earlky stage), and there is potentialy two or three hp gained from the exercise, the next question would be; do you need an alternator and could you therefore save another one or two hp (data from the interweb so its probably dodgy). Each engine situation will differ but I guess you could reasonably say no belts and pulleys is worth a few ponies on a n/a 2 litre four cylinder.

Counter arguements (or support for the total loss electrics approach) gratefuly received before I commit to engine water pump surgery.

John

Some "real world" numbers for your consideration, all verified by dyno testing:

A/   On the Milwaukee Midget 999 cc BMC "Grenade" the change to a gilmer belt driven under drive system from the stock based overdrive setup netted ~ 1.5 bhp, rpm range was 5500 rpm to 9000 rpm (planned, exceeded by driver  :roll:)

2/   Again on the MM Grenade, change to an electric pump netted ~ 2.3 bhp over previous best, same rpm range.

d/   On 7000 rpm to 10,000 rpm Cosworth BDD F/Atlantic engines, a 30% under drive Vs crank speed water pump drive netted ~ 2.8 bhp.   The engine was originally run to only 8500/8800 rpm.

Cheers,
Fordboy
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Offline fordboy628

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Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
« Reply #181 on: December 12, 2018, 10:41:18 AM »
Stainless;

I've wondered about this for a while... a total loss electric system usually loses voltage as current is drained from the battery but that doesn't have to happen. If a buck/boost regulator is inserted into the line from the battery it will maintain 12V output until the battery is totally exhausted. In fact, you could adjust its output to be 12V, 14V, 16V, or whatever you wanted. Has anyone ever used one?

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

On the new powerplant for the Milwaukee Midget, the decision has been made to go with a 15/16 volt battery, regulated, on a total loss system.    Will need to be charged on the line & between runs.    I'm sure it is posted on the Build Diary.   No doubt there will be commentary on how well it works out.   It does have room for an alternator though in case of a problem . . . . .    :|

 :cheers:
Fordboy
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline kiwi belly tank

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Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
« Reply #182 on: December 12, 2018, 12:16:44 PM »
The end goal is to not lose voltage so there's many ways to do that including capacitors. If you're worried about 1.5 hp loss with an alternator, a screw head in the wrong place on the body skin will suck up that much.
The Davies-Craig water pump from Aus has been around for years & comes with a controller.
I have two Meziere pumps on the KB.
  Sid.

Offline manta22

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Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
« Reply #183 on: December 12, 2018, 01:30:51 PM »
Sid, you couldn't fit a capacitor big enough to make a difference into a 40 ft streamliner. Not enough energy storage in a capacitor.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Offline ronnieroadster

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Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
« Reply #184 on: December 12, 2018, 03:13:31 PM »
Sid, you couldn't fit a capacitor big enough to make a difference into a 40 ft streamliner. Not enough energy storage in a capacitor.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ




 Using a set of capacitors that are actuated near the end of the run will work perfectly on a total loss system its been done many times.
     John to save on the HP drain on my Flathead Ford V-8 combination the only item the crankshaft turns on the front of the engine is the blower belt. For cooling I run two electric water pumps the other 12 volt main power items include ignition system fuel pump and data which gives me voltage readings during the run typical mumbers 12.2 to 12.4 nearing mile three.  To power two other pumps i use for the intercooler and crankcase i use two small alarm batteries their combined size and weight is less than the Optima main battery. Charging the main battery before the run is simple. To charge the two alarm battery's a simple trickle charger works perfectly. With this simple system we experienced no issues running  three miles on the salt. After the run we shut down the engine but keep the water pumps running to protect against that heat surge. I recently became aware of the capacitor use ideas that others have done since my car is long coarse qualified its something Im looking at if i plan on running past mile three.
 Ronnieroadster
« Last Edit: December 12, 2018, 03:16:41 PM by ronnieroadster »
Working in the shop I use the 'F' word a lot. No not that word these words Focus and Finish go Fast and Flathead Ford!
 ECTA  XF/BGRMR Record 179.8561
 LTA    XF/BGRMR  Record 200.921 First  Ever Ford Flathead Roadster to hit 200 MPH burning gasoline July 2018
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Offline manta22

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Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
« Reply #185 on: December 12, 2018, 04:59:47 PM »
RR;

To power an electric fuel pump and a CD ignition you'll need about 10 amps or more. This is going to require a very large capacitor to supply enough energy even for the last 15 or 20 seconds- a kiloJoule or more. A Supercapacitor can supply significant energy but they are not cheap. A boost/buck regulator is a far better approach- it maintains its output at 12V (or whatever you adjust it to) even if the battery starts out at 12.7V and  discharges down to 8V.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Offline ronnieroadster

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Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
« Reply #186 on: December 12, 2018, 08:03:20 PM »
RR;

To power an electric fuel pump and a CD ignition you'll need about 10 amps or more. This is going to require a very large capacitor to supply enough energy even for the last 15 or 20 seconds- a kiloJoule or more. A Supercapacitor can supply significant energy but they are not cheap. A boost/buck regulator is a far better approach- it maintains its output at 12V (or whatever you adjust it to) even if the battery starts out at 12.7V and  discharges down to 8V.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ


 Interesting info Neil Thanks i will look into the boost/buck regulator still more to learn thats what makes me enjoy all of this.
     Ronnieroadster
Working in the shop I use the 'F' word a lot. No not that word these words Focus and Finish go Fast and Flathead Ford!
 ECTA  XF/BGRMR Record 179.8561
 LTA    XF/BGRMR  Record 200.921 First  Ever Ford Flathead Roadster to hit 200 MPH burning gasoline July 2018
 SCTA  XF/BGRMR Record 195.650
 SCTA  XXF/BGRMR Record 216.131 plus a Red Hat
"Life Member of the Bonneville 200 MPH Club"

Offline Lemming Motors

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Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
« Reply #187 on: December 13, 2018, 08:56:38 AM »
I understand the boost part of the name but for the life of me can't figure out the derivation for buck. Up to 24 hours ago I didnt even know such a thing existed. The list of what I know I dont know gets longer and longer.
A Bonneville Lakester please barman.
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Offline Seldom Seen Slim

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Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
« Reply #188 on: December 13, 2018, 09:40:58 AM »
A boost/buck unit will provide output voltage and CURRENT based on what the powered device needs.  BUT:  to boost it needs to add to the energy being supplied by drawing extra from the source.

If you need 144 watts (14.4V/10amps) and the supply voltage is 12V -- no problem, the B/B will draw extra from the source, use that surplus to add to the source 12V and give you what you want.  It will use extra energy - like drawing 200 watts from the source to be able to deliver the rated output.

TAANSTAFL! :cheers:
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Offline salt27

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Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
« Reply #189 on: December 13, 2018, 09:51:32 AM »
I understand the boost part of the name but for the life of me can't figure out the derivation for buck. Up to 24 hours ago I didnt even know such a thing existed. The list of what I know I dont know gets longer and longer.

Boost is the step up

Buck is the step down

Offline manta22

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Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
« Reply #190 on: December 13, 2018, 04:56:07 PM »
I understand the boost part of the name but for the life of me can't figure out the derivation for buck. Up to 24 hours ago I didnt even know such a thing existed. The list of what I know I dont know gets longer and longer.

Boost is the step up

Buck is the step down

Succinctly stated! Thank you.   The idea behind it is that you can adjust its output to be higher than its input voltage or lower than its input voltage.

I used one to step up the 12V electrical system in a car that I had to 28V to actuate the solenoid on an air horn from a 2 1/2 ton GI truck. Small, fast cars need big, loud horns!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Offline Lemming Motors

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Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
« Reply #191 on: December 20, 2018, 11:17:00 AM »
Thanks guys - I now visualise a buck / boost is an electronic box that contains an ohms law triangle and one of the variables can be fixed - the others adjust as required.

Having sparked  :-D that debate I subsequently got the engine quite close to its final location on the lower chassis rails and plonked the alternator, water pump pulley and etc. back on it (header and throttle bodies stripped as they wil be replaced). I have adjusted the engine height from the original sketches and I gain room - I will not abandon the pump / alternator for now - it will be less fabrication if its mostly oem too but I reserve the right to revert to total loss.

The ITBs are on order and the head work has begun - perhaps prematurely but when funds allow ......
A Bonneville Lakester please barman.
Certainly sir; a lick of salt, a sip of gas and a twist of Lemming. More Lemming sir?
Just a squeeze.

A Squeeze of Lemming it is sir.

Offline tauruck

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Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
« Reply #192 on: December 20, 2018, 11:19:00 AM »
You're really on it now.

Nice going. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

Offline ronnieroadster

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Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
« Reply #193 on: December 20, 2018, 01:37:09 PM »
Seeing how so much is hanging off the left side of your engine if it was me I would begin what I call the prototype process.  First I would relocate the alternator lower making the needed mounting points from aluminum flat stock. Next I would rethink the water pump and related outlets especially so those outlets do not point directly into the body location.  Keeping everything inside the shape of the body would be priority number one so that usually means lost sleep thinking how to relocate and eliminate those troubling areas. Since your building a race car that falls into the special construction category of the rule book theres no set rules on how to do these details allowing you the builder the freedom to design whats needed. For me thats the best part of building a LSR car from scratch.
 Ronnieroadster
Working in the shop I use the 'F' word a lot. No not that word these words Focus and Finish go Fast and Flathead Ford!
 ECTA  XF/BGRMR Record 179.8561
 LTA    XF/BGRMR  Record 200.921 First  Ever Ford Flathead Roadster to hit 200 MPH burning gasoline July 2018
 SCTA  XF/BGRMR Record 195.650
 SCTA  XXF/BGRMR Record 216.131 plus a Red Hat
"Life Member of the Bonneville 200 MPH Club"

Offline Lemming Motors

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Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
« Reply #194 on: December 21, 2018, 07:30:28 AM »
Ronnie

What you describe is exactly what I thought I was up against which is one of the reasons I was noodling about total loss electrics and I admit the thought of free horses was compelling but as Sid stated I might as well be chasing unicorns (okay, I paraphrased him) as there will be losses elsewhere.

I was in fact making assumptions ahead of the engine install based on some obviously bad measurements I had made and sketched from. I had convinced myself there was not enough room.  The roll structure has three levels of main longitudinal tube - one above the shoulders, one at hip and the other narrower set about 6" off the floor. Any of those can be extended rearwards as the 'main' rails and I had convinced myself the middle / hip line was the right height - moving down to the lowest ones solved a bunch of packaging problems at a stroke.

What I did not explain regarding the pics is that the yellow spirit level is in fact the future body line at the alternator at its widest point with no bulges - the picture perspective doesnt make that obvious. The water outlet pointing straight at the body was also in my head when thinking about going electric pump. In fact I can get a 90 degree water tube in the available space no problem.

What I now need to figure out is the water tank as that will essentially occlude the firewall and gear shift rod, wires and brake hoses and etc need to pass through, over or under that tank.
A Bonneville Lakester please barman.
Certainly sir; a lick of salt, a sip of gas and a twist of Lemming. More Lemming sir?
Just a squeeze.

A Squeeze of Lemming it is sir.