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Author Topic: El Mirage – To Be or Not To Be  (Read 13858 times)
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jl222
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« Reply #75 on: December 01, 2017, 10:39:28 AM »

Sparky... there is a name for people that think as you do. starts with a p and ends with h
    

OK JL, I couldn't figure it out on my own, so I tried google.....
padishah, padshah, paganish, pah, painch, paintbrush, palish, panfish, paragraph, paraph, parashah, parashioth, parashoth, parch, pardah, parflesh, pariah, parish, parritch, pash, patch, path, patriarch, paunch, peach, peakish, pearlash, pech, peevish, pentarch, perch, perianth, perish, perkish, pettish, pharaoh, phonograph, photograph, pibroch, pigfish, piggish, pinch, pinfish, pinkish, pipefish, pish, pitch, pith, pittsburgh, pixieish, pixyish, planch, planish, plash, pleach, plenish, plinth, plough, plumpish, plush, poach, poh, polish, polymath, pooch, pooh, poorish, poortith, popish, porch, posh, potash, potlach, potlatch, pouch, prankish, preach, preestablish, prelaunch, prepunch, prewash, priggish, prudish, prutah, prutoth, psych, psychopath, publish, puckish, puggish, pugh, punch, punish, punkah, pupfish, puppyish, purdah, purplish, push, putsch, pygmyish

Impressively, I found one in there that describe a lot of us.... plumpish  grin  cheers

OK back to your regularly scheduled discussion on Elmo



 Yeah plumpish, especially this time of the year  cheers

               JL222
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RichFox
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« Reply #76 on: December 01, 2017, 10:39:47 AM »

The fast guys seemed to get stopped OK at the November meet. Maybe because they were paying attemtion. It would be interesting to hear from the guys who went out the back about why that happened. Then you could think about how to prevent it from happening again.
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836dstr
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« Reply #77 on: December 01, 2017, 11:59:11 AM »

In addition to the current finish line markers why not supplement them with some flags ( think the black and white triangular race flags on fences around race tracks) mounted 10 or 12 feet above the finish line. Some light orange plastic netting could also be used. You wouldn't need a long span, just enough of a visual clue that it's time to dump the laundry, shut off the fuel or kill the ignition.

Tom
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mtiberio
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« Reply #78 on: December 01, 2017, 12:32:07 PM »

... It would be interesting to hear from the guys who went out the back about why that happened. Then you could think about how to prevent it from happening again.

Other have said this, and it is true. If this was a NASA or DOD project, no one would consider suggesting solutions until they knew WHAT CAUSED THE PROBLEMS. To suggest otherwise is folly.

We have heard (or I can think of):

chute failure
brake failure
dust outside vehicle
dust inside vehicle
racers "red mist"
deliberate attempt to get a longer run (testing for Bonneville?)
thought the finish was merely mile 1 marker from Bonneville
morning sun
lack of penalty => don't care

Other things we don't know (but should)

what class were they running
what brand chute were they running
drivers name
team name
speed at back door
still in throttle at back door?

Collection of information like this is critical to solving the problem.

So now, let me engage in some folly. First offense, driver and car banned for year, 2nd offense, lifetime ban. Exception: in the case of brake or chute failure, then the driver gets a pass. If we find out that chutes have a high failure rate, perhaps we need to ban classes that require chutes. If we find out all the offenses are from a handful of classes, perhaps those classes need to go. Believe me if you ban a popular driver or car for a year or a lifetime, it will get peoples attention. So many of the reasons I listed above are due to the fact that the driver doesn't lift when there is a problem. Ban somebody, the word will get out and I'd bet the number of backdoor violations goes down.

Last point, and I know I'll regret saying this, but if we had 4 (or more) backdoor violations last meet and the BLM didn't shut us down, this whole issue seems like a red herring to me. A bunch of toothless finger wagging. Don't really want to test the theory, but given all the violations we had this year, it is either a miracle we haven't been shut down, or there is something else afoot.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 12:34:11 PM by mtiberio » Logged
SPARKY
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« Reply #79 on: December 01, 2017, 12:49:50 PM »

 I only heard stories of 2 that went out

 dust clouded vision was and could have been a contributing factor


geezz if you guys think I am plumpish I better get on a diet before the next meet
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 12:53:21 PM by SPARKY » Logged

Miss LIBERTY,  changing TKI  to noise, dust and RUST!!!

The # 1 issue is: TO KEEP THE REPUBLIC      
   Center for Self Governance            tncsg.org     mrspowell.org

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Stainless1
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« Reply #80 on: December 01, 2017, 09:01:11 PM »

Well Sparky I didn't see too many on the list that might apply... poortith maybe... although puirtith wasn't on the list..... and they mean the same thing....  rolleyes
But it never hurts to fit in the car better....  cheers
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Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, MSA Bockscar Lakester with a little N20 
MSA Bockscar Lakester #1000 my fastest mile 245 and change, 84 ci turbobusa motor... but Corey's 233 MPH H/BFL record is still 3MPH faster than mine.
ken s
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« Reply #81 on: December 01, 2017, 09:08:48 PM »

... It would be interesting to hear from the guys who went out the back about why that happened. Then you could think about how to prevent it from happening again.

Other have said this, and it is true. If this was a NASA or DOD project, no one would consider suggesting solutions until they knew WHAT CAUSED THE PROBLEMS. To suggest otherwise is folly.

We have heard (or I can think of):

chute failure
brake failure
dust outside vehicle
dust inside vehicle
racers "red mist"
deliberate attempt to get a longer run (testing for Bonneville?)
thought the finish was merely mile 1 marker from Bonneville
morning sun
lack of penalty => don't care

Other things we don't know (but should)

what class were they running
what brand chute were they running
drivers name
team name
speed at back door
still in throttle at back door?

Collection of information like this is critical to solving the problem.

So now, let me engage in some folly. First offense, driver and car banned for year, 2nd offense, lifetime ban. Exception: in the case of brake or chute failure, then the driver gets a pass. If we find out that chutes have a high failure rate, perhaps we need to ban classes that require chutes. If we find out all the offenses are from a handful of classes, perhaps those classes need to go. Believe me if you ban a popular driver or car for a year or a lifetime, it will get peoples attention. So many of the reasons I listed above are due to the fact that the driver doesn't lift when there is a problem. Ban somebody, the word will get out and I'd bet the number of backdoor violations goes down.

Last point, and I know I'll regret saying this, but if we had 4 (or more) backdoor violations last meet and the BLM didn't shut us down, this whole issue seems like a red herring to me. A bunch of toothless finger wagging. Don't really want to test the theory, but given all the violations we had this year, it is either a miracle we haven't been shut down, or there is something else afoot.

 1 year ban at El Mirage for vehicle, owner and driver, 3 year ban for vehicle, owner and driver at bonneville will nip reasons 3,4,5,6,7,8 &9 in the bud.   Equipment failures would need evaluation , return to rookie status to run at El Mirage again. After making good rookie runs , ban from bonneville could also be lifted.
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fastesthonda_jim
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« Reply #82 on: December 02, 2017, 07:13:55 AM »

Okay, guys, (Gals?), I need to bring this conversation back to what I perceive as "reality".  And yes it's true, I don't remember much of the 60's, but that isn't relevant in this discussion of "reality", okay?
Okay?
ALL of these "solutions" either:
1. cost money,
2, cost time,
3. don't substantively change the relationship with the BLM
4. need more volunteers
5. AND MOST IMPORTANT - happen AFTER the "infraction", i.e., AFTER we have killed a kid on an errant mini quad, which, of course, given the discussion, would result in the driver getting a one year suspension (on a race course that no longer existed), while the kid gets "suspended" for eternity - doesn't seem real fair to me.
What on earth is the resistance, to simply running the other way, as we have done, apparently successfully, in the past?
No extra flags, no barriers, no extra work, no... etc., etc., etc.  And any problems that occur only affect the person who "created" them in the first place.
It seems SO simple to me.
And to "centralize" the discussion a bit, ANY problems that running East to West might produce are far less than the "no problems" solution of no race course.

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Bonneville "2" Club 2003
El Mirage Dirty "2"'s 2006
Bonneville Records: G/GS, F/GS (Boy)  G/FS (Girl)
El Mirage Records: F/BFS, F/FS, F/GS, I/FS, I/GS, K/BGS
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« Reply #83 on: December 02, 2017, 10:28:29 AM »

I would like to see a more visible track outline. Like the tall tubular black ones used sometimes at Bonnevile. Also different colored cones lining the shut down area.Speeds are getting higher, maybe its time to bring the track up to date.This is am amature sport we could use a little help.
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« Reply #84 on: December 02, 2017, 12:29:34 PM »

I have not run at El Mirage for a few years, but I can see that is very easy to run out the back door. The racers who propose punishment for doing so are off-base because that occurs AFTER the infraction has happened. Too late. There needs to be measures to prevent it from happening in the first place. Better end of course markers,  cone-ing down the course so it get narrower and finally ends with the racer busting through cones.

Nets are too dangerous and would end up with a lawsuit because of damage to vehicle and injuries to racer.

But the best proposal is aiming the course east to west as several have already suggested. The entire east end of the course could be fenced off so no civilians can enter the shut-down area. And of course there would be no question to the racer that he is in the shut down area as it becomes rougher and rougher and hills and bushes fill the windshield.

Don
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« Reply #85 on: December 02, 2017, 12:44:46 PM »


But the best proposal is aiming the course east to west as several have already suggested. The entire east end of the course could be fenced off so no civilians can enter the shut-down area. And of course there would be no question to the racer that he is in the shut down area as it becomes rougher and rougher and hills and bushes fill the windshield.

Don

The only unanswered questions I would have regarding an east-to-west orientation is the potential for non-racers to be in the path of an over-shoot off of the lakebed, and the potential to cross into private property.

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« Reply #86 on: December 02, 2017, 01:02:51 PM »

Jim this seems like you have all the answers and you are just trying to see if we can come up with questions that will fit them!!
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Miss LIBERTY,  changing TKI  to noise, dust and RUST!!!

The # 1 issue is: TO KEEP THE REPUBLIC      
   Center for Self Governance            tncsg.org     mrspowell.org

"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing."   Helen Keller
mtiberio
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« Reply #87 on: December 02, 2017, 01:43:27 PM »

....
What on earth is the resistance, to simply running the other way, ....


Dominant wind direction.
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desotoman
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« Reply #88 on: December 02, 2017, 03:20:38 PM »

Okay, guys, (Gals?), I need to bring this conversation back to what I perceive as "reality".  And yes it's true, I don't remember much of the 60's, but that isn't relevant in this discussion of "reality", okay?
Okay?
ALL of these "solutions" either:
1. cost money,
2, cost time,
3. don't substantively change the relationship with the BLM
4. need more volunteers
5. AND MOST IMPORTANT - happen AFTER the "infraction", i.e., AFTER we have killed a kid on an errant mini quad, which, of course, given the discussion, would result in the driver getting a one year suspension (on a race course that no longer existed), while the kid gets "suspended" for eternity - doesn't seem real fair to me.
What on earth is the resistance, to simply running the other way, as we have done, apparently successfully, in the past?
No extra flags, no barriers, no extra work, no... etc., etc., etc.  And any problems that occur only affect the person who "created" them in the first place.
It seems SO simple to me.
And to "centralize" the discussion a bit, ANY problems that running East to West might produce are far less than the "no problems" solution of no race course.



Jim,

Before we get too wound up on this subject. I would like to read the minutes of the Board meeting for the November meet and see what they had to say. I have not received mine yet.

What happens when a kid crosses the race course and gets hit by a racer? It won't matter what direction we are running.

Tom G.
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Asking questions is one's only way of getting answers. As a young boy I was always taught that there is no such thing as a stupid question. It suggests that the quest for knowledge includes failure, and that just because one person may know less than others they should not be afraid to ask rather than pretend they already know. In many cases multiple people may not know but are too afraid to ask the "stupid question"; the one who asks the question may in fact be doing a service to those around them.
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« Reply #89 on: December 02, 2017, 05:14:05 PM »

This is not a new problem. Around 1960 I was coming down the lake entrance road and met Tom Beatty, driving his tank up the road. He had lost his rear wheel only brakes and had coasted for miles. The incline of the entrance road finally stopped the tank.

A little historical perspective—SCTA pioneer Ak Miller stopped running El Mirage in the mid 1950s, because he though it was too dangerous. Ak went on to doing the safer(?) Mexican Road Race and the Pies Peak Hillclimb. When A.O. left 200 mph tanks were not common, now the C/Pro record is almost that fast. When both SCTA and RTA were running El Mirage, SCTA used a shorter course than they do now. The old timers knew that El Mo would not last forever, and were always looking for a replacement. SCTA ran 1/4 mile drags at Colton, 1/2 drags mile at Riverside International Raceway and on the dirt at Laguna Salada, 19 mi southwest of Mexicali, in Baja California. The lake bed is huge (over 10 miles wide and over 35 miles long), but it was too soft. If the 1960s board was still running things, SCTA would be the group promoting the Mojave Mile. How do I know this? I represented the Road Birds, at board meeting in the early '60, and was part of the group that checked-out Laguna Salada (Jim and Larry Lindsley, Griggs, Bill Smith, etc plus Bob Greene from Hot Rod mag).

Now on to the present. If someone can't walk & chew gum, he shouldn't get to drive. When I drove SCCA, I had to pass a CAA/FAA physical, does the SCTA require a physical now? They didn't when I ran.

How about cutting the course length to one mile? Maybe 4 wheel brakes on all cars? Maybe just stop running until you can find some pavement. Has anyone talked to the former George AFB people?

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Beef Stew doesn't have his head where the sun-don't-shine. His head is in SoCal where the unusual is an everyday happening.
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