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Author Topic: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners  (Read 530934 times)
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wobblywalrus
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« Reply #2955 on: November 24, 2017, 10:56:35 AM »

This post is for anyone who does this crank conversion.  Triumph changed the engine breathers midway in the Bonneville series.  The crankcases and side covers changed as well as the breather itself.  A part of the breather is attached to the end of the crank.  Some part number research shows that the crank part number was the same before and after the breather change.  This morning I verified this.  The scrambler crank with the chipped gear is a 2014 270-450 crank and the one in the picture is a 2003 360-360 one.  The ends measure to to be the same.  The picture shows an end.  The parts needed for the conversion are the staggered crank, the two balancer shafts, a flywheel with staggered ignition triggers, an ignition module programmed for staggered firing order, and two appropriate cams.  The two different cranks will work with either style of breather.   


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wobblywalrus
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« Reply #2956 on: November 25, 2017, 12:01:01 AM »

The left cylinder rod bearing shells have always been problematic.  The babbitt flakes off the shell.  Custom "Top Loader" rods were installed so I could renew the rod shells every year without tearing the bottom end apart.  It was a pain in the arse and I was really worried about it with the new motor.  The new engine has 600 rpm higher redline and puts out 20 more horsepower.

Used rod shells were sent in to an industry expert.  He told me to set the journal to shell clearances between 0.017 and 0.022.  He also told me to have the shells coated.  Polydyn was one of the recommended sources and they did the shells.  He also mentioned some different brands of oil.  Joe Gibbs was one and that is what I chose.
 
The motor was ran at B'ville and did a lot of dyno pulls.  Close inspection of the shells shows that these changes did not completely cure the problem.  They made a vast improvement, though, and the issue is maneagable.  Hopefully the problem will go away with the new crank.

Coating the bearing shells and using the recommended oil are now standard operating procedures.         
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wobblywalrus
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« Reply #2957 on: November 26, 2017, 06:04:19 PM »

The engine has 11.9 to 1 static compression ratio.  The cam centers were degreed after I came back from Bonneville.  The intake and exhaust centers were 116 and 106.5, respectively.  The dynamic comp is 9.71 to 1 with maximum cylinder pressure of 96 bar at 7,500 rpm.  PipeMax recommends 106.6 to 106.4 (R+M) /2 octane for this.

Cams timed at 106 and 108 give a dynamic ratio of 10.36 to 1 with a maximum cylinder pressure of 98 bar at 7,000 rpm.  PipeMax recommends the same octane gasoline.  This is a high dynamic ratio and significantly greater than the ratio in actual use.  It is suspect that a higher octane gas would not be needed.  Is there another way to calculate octane needs? 

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wobblywalrus
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« Reply #2958 on: November 26, 2017, 07:42:01 PM »

This is the worksheet for today.  The first row shows cylinder pressures for the cam timing I had at B'ville.  It is 116-106.5.  Peak cylinder pressures vary from 74.1 bar at 5,000 rpm to 96 bar at 7,500 rpm.  The last row shows the cylinder pressures using the cam grinder's second recommendation.  They vary from 82.2 bar at 5,000 rpm to 98 bar at 7,000 rpm.  There are big increases in cylinder pressure up through 8,000 rpm.  The horsepower and max power rpm are identical at 125.74 crank hp at 8,500 rpm.  The big difference is in the urge up to the peak.

The data was entered into PipeMax and the VE was adjusted so PipeMax gave the same horsepower.  The octane requirements are in the mid 100's.  Sunoco Supreme, VP 110, or ERC 110K should have enough octane.

That dynamic ratio seems awfully high.  It is for Bonneville, however, where the actual cylinder pressures will be quite a bit lower.       


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Old Scrambler
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« Reply #2959 on: November 27, 2017, 06:57:06 PM »

Y cheers cheers Your way ahead of me on building that motor....................but PLEASE consider proper wheels and tires for TOP SPEED.........Advise to look at Tom Mellor and ALP Triumph builds
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2011 AMA Record - 250cc M-PG TRIUMPH Tiger Cub - 82.5 mph
2013 AMA Record - 250cc MPS-PG TRIUMPH Tiger Cub - 88.7 mph
2016 AMA Record - 750cc M-CG HONDA CB750 sohc - 130.7 mph
2016 AMA Record - 750cc MPS-CG HONDA CB750 sohc - 137.7 mph
Chasis Builder / Tuner: Dave Murre
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« Reply #2960 on: November 27, 2017, 10:21:54 PM »

Spoked wheels tend to bend rather than shatter in impact situations like hitting the edge of a pothole.  The tires are zr rated battle-axes.  The rims are good quality alloy ones.  The spokes are heavy duty stainless.  It seems like a good setup to me.  A treaded rain tire for road racing is being considered for the back.  They do a lot of road racing with classic bikes like Matchlesses and Norton Manxes in the UK.  Occasionally it rains there.  They might have just what I need.

The peak cylinder pressure was 96 bar with the funky cam timing used last summer.  The highest peak pressure does not significantly increase above this in any of the six rows of data.  Maybe that is why the PipeMax program did not say that more octane is needed for the higher dynamic comp ratios.     
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« Reply #2961 on: November 28, 2017, 12:22:04 PM »

My suggestion is minimal tread and narrow profile...........at 150 mph........how much of the tire is actually in contact with the salt? Traction and speed-wobble is all about weight-bias ratios and easing off of the throttle / body-air braking.  Just look at the speeds of the production bikes. 
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2011 AMA Record - 250cc M-PG TRIUMPH Tiger Cub - 82.5 mph
2013 AMA Record - 250cc MPS-PG TRIUMPH Tiger Cub - 88.7 mph
2016 AMA Record - 750cc M-CG HONDA CB750 sohc - 130.7 mph
2016 AMA Record - 750cc MPS-CG HONDA CB750 sohc - 137.7 mph
Chasis Builder / Tuner: Dave Murre
wobblywalrus
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« Reply #2962 on: November 29, 2017, 12:57:22 AM »

The guy that beats me is the best teacher.  Some bikes needed to be sold to the public to homogulate a bike for super bike racing.  I think it was 50 that needed to be made and sold.  One of them was what was used on that funky track to whip my butt.  Picture a factory road race bike in your mind.  It is a short wheelbase one with wide tires and very good suspension.

There seems to be different ways to get speed.  One is with long streamlined bikes with narrow wheels and good aero.  The other is with sophisticated versions of standard bikes.  There are some bikes like the ones the Aussies run that are halfway between the two.   

The deciding factor is the track.  Long bikes with good aero will dominate on smooth salt.  Shorter and more conventional bikes will dominate if the salt continues to be rough.  The reason is that it is hard to build real good suspension into a long bike.

What will I do?  Probably stay with what I have and gradually upgrade it.  The bike is "paid for."  For now, that means a soft compound grippy rear tire in the 130 through 150 x 17 size.  It needs an over 150 mph speed rating and not made in red China.

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wobblywalrus
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« Reply #2963 on: December 02, 2017, 08:16:08 PM »

The new used crank had a flywheel on it for electronic fuel injection.  A wheel for a carb bike was found on e-bay for $200.  The first picture shows the new wheel on the crank and the old one was similar.  Removing the old one was a multi step process.  "Use heat" was what a few people told me.  A flywheel removing too was screwed into the flywheel and tightened up.  The flywheel was heated up with a hair dryer.  It would not come off.  The tool was screwed in tighter.  The wheel was heated with a propane torch.  It would not come off.  The MIG welder was cranked up to full voltage and a couple of circle welds were made around the inside of the rascal.  The wheel was really hot.  The tool was screwed in tighter and the threads stripped.  The flywheel did not come off.

A trip was made to the machine shop.  The machinist looked at it and gave me instructions.  "Chuck it up in your lathe and cut off the snout.  Thread a bolt in the hole and use a strong wide washer."  This was done.  The wheel and crank were put in the press, pressure was applied, and there was a big snap.  The wheel came off.  The guy charged me $10 and did it while I waited.  Good service.  The 270 degree crank pistons, rods, and e-bay flywheel are on their way to Long Beach where the crank will be balanced.

The bottoms of the pistons show no signs of oil oxidation.  The thermal barrier coatings work great.  It is hard to believe such a thin coating can do this.  "Magic" is my best guess.


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wobblywalrus
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« Reply #2964 on: December 03, 2017, 11:12:29 AM »

The engine build would be done next year as planned.  The cam chain was worn so the cams were lagging more than four crank degrees from "with a new chain" timing.  The lower chain sprocket is on the crank and it cannot be replaced without putting in a new one.  It is a good idea to keep the chains from getting too worn and letting them trash the lower sprocket.  So, the big rebuild is being done now.

Lobe centers as tight as 107 to 108 are recommended by the computer and Vizard's book.  This makes a long overlap period.  The valves are in two rows next to each other, they flow well at lower lifts, and there is a minimal piston crown height to keep the flow from going out the intakes and out through the exhausts, or vice versa.  Exhaust and intake tuning needs to be very good to make these engines work and they run really bad if it isnt.  My resources to monkey around with different systems to fix problems are limited.  It is the time and money issue.  Reducing overlap is a good idea.

Overlap shows up as a triangle shaped area on a graph of the two cams lift vs crank angle.  A result of this is that any reduction in the degrees of overlap makes a more significant loss of overlap area than just the reduction in degrees would suggest.  The two settings recommended by Ransom T had 110 and 112 lobe spread.  These larger separation angles would reduce the overlap window areas considerably.  They were entered into the program and lots of time was spent looking at graphs and tables.  A "new chain" setting of intake and exhaust at 106 -116, with a mid range setting of 108 - 114, and a "replace the chain" setting of 110 - 112 gives good virtual performance throughout the chain life.  Performance is much better than with the 116 - 106 setting used at B'ville last summer.  The lobe separation angle is 111 degrees.

A bolt on cam sprocket came loose on one of my engines decades ago.  Now, adjustable cam sprockets are used for checking clearances and dyno work only.  The sprockets will be welded to the cams.  Two new cams were ordered from Triumph and they will be sent to the grinder on Monday. 

 


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wobblywalrus
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« Reply #2965 on: December 03, 2017, 03:16:13 PM »

This service was mentioned in a recent junk mail.  It looks pretty good for car engines.  They do not do Triumph cams. www.controlledinduction.com
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wobblywalrus
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« Reply #2966 on: December 10, 2017, 01:55:24 PM »

There is an article about rebuilding a Honda 400 four in the October 2017 Classic Bike Guide.  It shows a picture of the rods and crank and sez;  "The crankshaft assembly has been cleaned and the con rods carry new bearing shells.  Make sure the keys on the shells face the exhaust side of the engine."

What is the general rule on tab side orientation in respect to the piston thrust face or crank rotation direction?  Why is it a concern?


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« Reply #2967 on: December 10, 2017, 02:46:50 PM »

If you aren't removing the piston from the rod for instance, the piston may have valve reliefs cut in them that are exhaust and intake specific, and if the piston and rod assembly are placed in the engine backwards, piston to valve contact may occur and the resulting damage is the result. Also, some connecting rods have spit hole oilers or grooves milled in the rod check faces to oil the thrust side of the cylinders, and reversing the rod orientation can negate the benefits of those features by directing oil the other direction. Another example is that some rods may be offset on the big end and reversing them may force the small end of the rods to dig in and even bend if they are in a bind from contacting the pin boss in the piston. A lot of variables can dictate why they mention the orientation of the rods even if they don't give the reasons why.
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Rex Schimmer
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« Reply #2968 on: December 10, 2017, 05:57:36 PM »

Not sure if Dema does motorcycle cams but worth a try. His web site is: http://www.elgincams.com. Great guy and knows his stuff!

Rex
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« Reply #2969 on: December 13, 2017, 10:07:22 PM »

The articles on the Elgin cam website were taken seriously when the latest version of this engine was designed.  The cam grinder I am using now has a bunch of profiles for these engines.  One by one I looked at them in various combinations using Dynomation.  The grinds I am using are pretty good.  The dyno will tell the story in a few months.

The smart thing would be to work with someone like Dema from the beginning back in 2007.  I knew this and would have more records if I did.  It is a deliberate decision to struggle with it myself.  The hard part is unlearning most of what I know and reeducating myself.  Lots and lots of nights are spent figuring things out.  It is paying off.

A lot of thought is given to an idea.  It is working with Dema to make a refined version of the motor I build this year.  The problem is getting the power to the salt and turning it into speed.  More power won't do much if it goes into wheel spin like it does now.

The subject of high port helmets is on the forum.  Some research shows that the Shoei X-14 helmet has a high eye port and good aerodynamics.  A few land speed racers use and like them according to Shoei.  Today I went up to the local Honda shop and did some more research.

It seems that my head is round and pointy in the back and has a neanderthal like sloping front.  Helmets tend to ride low at the front 'cause there is not a lot of skull and brains to hold them up.  The salesman told me this in much more delicate terms.  The X-14 has adjustable pads.  They can be arranged to fit my cave man noggin and to keep the helmet higher in the front.

The X-14 is an expensive helmet used by racers and they do not keep them in stock according to the salesman.  The Shoei helmet one step lower in price has the same tall eye port as the X-14 but not the adjustable padding.  I tried one on.  The upper edge of the eye port is much less visible.  It will be completely out of visual range with the padding adjusted to fit my head.

A higher eye port means a lower tuck and less wind resistance.  Better aerodynamics increases speed more than added horsepower in traction limited situations.  The money that was set aside to have the 13 to 1 pistons made was used to order an X-14 helmet.  They gave me a racer's discount.  A new and unused Arai Vector-2 will be up for sale.  It meets the latest safety sticker requirements and is a great lid for someone who does not need a tall eye port.

 



 
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