Author Topic: Wind Tunnel Testing for Bonneville  (Read 45396 times)

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Offline jacksoni

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Re: Wind Tunnel Testing for Bonneville
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2017, 06:39:36 AM »
It has been suggested that different inspectors have different opinions...... :?
Jack Iliff
 G/BGS-250.235 1987
 G/GC- 193.550 2021
  G/FAlt- 193.934 2021 (196.033 best)
 G/GMS-182.144 2019

Offline SPARKY

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Re: Wind Tunnel Testing for Bonneville
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2017, 08:42:27 AM »
Surely you jest   :-D
Miss LIBERTY,  changing T.K.I.  to noise, dust, rust, BLUE HATS & hopefully not scrap!!

"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing."   Helen Keller

We are going to explore the racing N words NITROUS & NITRO!

Offline johnneilson

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Re: Wind Tunnel Testing for Bonneville
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2017, 09:19:08 AM »
The Inspectors do not care about Class Legality, they are only looking for minimum safety regulations.
The Class Committee are the ones who Certify class compliance and the Records.
As Carroll Smith wrote; All Failures are Human in Origin.

Offline Eddieschopshop

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Re: Wind Tunnel Testing for Bonneville
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2017, 10:26:56 AM »
That is right,  inspectors have no say in class legality.  If an inspector see's something that is a violation that may keep someone from getting a record they should say something out of courtesy though.  But getting something approved by an inspector doesn't guarantee class legality.    If this is signed off as legal,  I have no problem with it.  I just know some others in the class that would like to know.  I would like to see more open discussions about this stuff in the future.  Everyone is afraid to talk about it because they don't want their car scrutinized out of retaliation.  There are Oops as far as the rules go and then there are blatant cheaters.  In this case I think it may be a liberal interpretation,  but I'll be the first to to say good job if I am wrong. 


Offline jdincau

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Re: Wind Tunnel Testing for Bonneville
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2017, 10:45:30 AM »

Hmmm...seems our session got "leaked" to the press!  Chute fairings are legal and in spec, according to the tech official who approved the design & measurements before we built them.  We learned last year that the drop in the '27 turtledeck was generating almost 200 lbs. of lift so a redesign was in order to keep that "spin demon" away!


What may be in question is do the "chute fairings" act as a spoiler. If it looks like a spoiler and works like a spoiler, it's a spoiler.
Unless it's crazy, ambitious and delusional, it's not worth our time!

Offline SPARKY

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Re: Wind Tunnel Testing for Bonneville
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2017, 11:50:19 AM »
I am not a roadster guy---one can mount the chute to act as a spoiler and they have been.  The rules also say that one can have fairings on the headrest and the chutes.

Lakester rules are simple--no streamlining outside the inside plane of the narrowest tire.
Miss LIBERTY,  changing T.K.I.  to noise, dust, rust, BLUE HATS & hopefully not scrap!!

"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing."   Helen Keller

We are going to explore the racing N words NITROUS & NITRO!

Offline Buickguy3

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Re: Wind Tunnel Testing for Bonneville
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2017, 05:16:16 PM »
  Ah yes, The Spirit of The Rule rears it's ugly head again. ;)
     Doug  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
I keep going faster and faster and I don't know why. All I have to do is live and die.
                   [America]

Offline SPARKY

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Re: Wind Tunnel Testing for Bonneville
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2017, 06:33:43 PM »
Most of us have to depend on "The Written Word" for the rules
Miss LIBERTY,  changing T.K.I.  to noise, dust, rust, BLUE HATS & hopefully not scrap!!

"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing."   Helen Keller

We are going to explore the racing N words NITROUS & NITRO!

Offline Randy Simmons

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Re: Wind Tunnel Testing for Bonneville
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2017, 07:43:10 PM »
It clearly states in the rule book that it is Legal to cover 65% of the rear turtle deck from a topical view looking straight down and it is measured from the inner rolled edge of the seating area of the stock body. None of these people that are questioning the body has seen a topical view of this car so they do not know the exact coverage but only speculating that it is covering too much. Since I am the one who talked to Russ Eyres about how they measure for total coverage and I am the one who mapped it out and fabricated the panels I assure all the haters out there this it is under the 65% allowable coverage and it is Legal!

Offline SPARKY

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Re: Wind Tunnel Testing for Bonneville
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2017, 11:05:43 PM »
 :cheers:
Miss LIBERTY,  changing T.K.I.  to noise, dust, rust, BLUE HATS & hopefully not scrap!!

"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing."   Helen Keller

We are going to explore the racing N words NITROUS & NITRO!

Offline Peter Jack

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Re: Wind Tunnel Testing for Bonneville
« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2017, 01:07:41 AM »
Randy, I don't think it's a case of haters per se so much as skeptics. Many have gone through inspection with what they felt was legal and found out otherwise. You've certainly followed the best procedure so far. Documentation is still your best friend.

Pete

Offline Eddieschopshop

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Re: Wind Tunnel Testing for Bonneville
« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2017, 10:01:26 AM »
Randy,  you seem to be ignoring the word "horizontal".  Why is that word in the rule if it is simply meant to say you can  cover 65% of the TOTAL area.  Nobody is hating,  the fact that is your first post is a little telling in itself.  There is no malice intended and people deserve clarification if something is against the rules by their understanding. 

Offline Mike Borders

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Re: Wind Tunnel Testing for Bonneville
« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2017, 12:57:44 PM »
Randy,  you seem to be ignoring the word "horizontal".  Why is that word in the rule if it is simply meant to say you can  cover 65% of the TOTAL area.  Nobody is hating,  the fact that is your first post is a little telling in itself.  There is no malice intended and people deserve clarification if something is against the rules by their understanding. 

And, "Eddie", you are hung up on the same word, and if the "people" want clarification of a rule, let them ask the Rules Committee like we did, instead of airing out opinions on a public forum. 

Here's a DIRECT QUOTE from Russ Eyres himself in response to our request for clarification, BEFORE the mods were made:  "The simplest way to tell if your car is legal from the 65% rule is to imagine a 2 dimensional view of the entire body from the rear of the cockpit to the sides and aft edges of the car taken from directly above at significant distance – or in architectural terms a “plan view”..  Then take the same view of that area after you have built your add on structures for whatever legal purposes and see if there is still 35% original body in view from a vertical projection area perspective."

As an aside, the changes we made actually increased the Cd by .05, not decreased it.  What it DID do was stabilize the car to make it SAFER at speed by removing dangerous lift and move the CP  rearward of the CG, which, as we all know, is vital in a Bonneville car, ESPECIALLY a RMR, to prevent spins.  We had to add horsepower to overcome the additional drag to achieve the same speed as last year, so I ask you, Eddie, how in the world can this change be considered advantageous and not in the best interests of safety, which we all want?

Also, to clarify:  Randy is a Bonneville roadster builder and record holder in his own right, not some neophyte, and deserves credit for knowing what he's doing.  He called Russ personally to get the clarification mentioned above, and all is fully documented.  Finally, since we did not approve of the release of our wind tunnel photos (we were not asked), we will have no more to say on this matter in a public forum.    :cheers:

Offline Eddieschopshop

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Re: Wind Tunnel Testing for Bonneville
« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2017, 05:20:06 PM »
Okay let me break it down.

1.  Lighten up...  if your car is legal you have nothing to worry about.
2.  If your car is legal you shouldn't be afraid of having pictures of it shown or having it discussed.
3.  If you have prior approval you are golden.  But you don't, (from what you are saying) you had Russ repeat the rule to you.... BEFORE your changes.  Send him pics of your actual car now and get it approved.
4.  With prior approval you can thank me at Bville for saving you that protest that is bound to happen.
5.  Spoilers aren't legal
6.  Parachute fairings can be no bigger than the parachute.  Your car has a clearly defined headrest fairing.  You have extra material 3-4" between the parachute fairings and headrest fairing.  No purpose other than making your SPOILER bigger.  So you are breaking the parachute fairing rule as well as the 65% rule.
7.  I am hung up on the Horizontal word because it is the key part of the rule you guys are ignoring.
8.  Yes you increased your drag which is exactly what I theorized would happen.  This is considered an advantage because you can use more hp (even though it cost some) than someone without a spoiler.   If it wasn't an advantage.... why did you do it?
9.  Nobodies questioning anybody's credentials.  A rule interpretation is being questioned,  nothing more. 
10.  Rules are commonly discussed,  this happens to be the single most touchy area of the RMR class.  I am sorry if your feelings are hurt since your car is the focus of this particular rules discussion. 

Again,  my only goal was to make sure you guys had a heads up that you may get protested.  It is common for guys to call with a question, get an answer they interpret to what they want to hear and call it approval.  Send pictures get approval on actual car.. Done.   

You could have politely said "we think we are legal", but if you want to actually discuss it... this is a Forum dedicated to discussing land speed so I don't see what the problem is.  I don't see anything wrong with a polite, respectful conversation about rules.   

Now I will ask the others following this discussion.  Is there anyone other than the car owner/fabricator that sees this car as being legal?

Offline krusty

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Re: Wind Tunnel Testing for Bonneville
« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2017, 05:37:03 AM »
 When I first saw the pics of Mike's car, my immediate take was " how is the extra width of the chute fairing(s), as shown by the 2"or 3" of material between the chute(s) and the fairing (and resulting top surface) legal?". 5.B.1.a clearly states, as Eddie does, that the chute pack fairing can be no larger than the chute pack. It appears that this design has traded length for width, and the extra width cannot be justified, in my opinion.  

The car in my avatar was once, in part, responsible for the 65% rule (at least I like to claim so); the other main contributor, I believe, was Anthony Young's C/FRMR. Our #1429 has gone through record certification four times (2013 & 2016) in its current configuration, which was implemented after the rule was passed. Prior to the rule (and subsequent redesign) the car passed record certification nine times (2009 thru 2012). I, too, have had many conversations with Russ Eyres about the intents of RMR rules and their implementation. The only way in which our chute pack fairings exceed the chute pack dimensions is by the thickness of the fairing material (0.050").

I have refrained from commenting up 'til now since I have a dog in this fight (sorta), but would never file a protest against a car that is not in one of our  engine classes. Who does have "status" to file a protest against any car for anything is not clearly defined in the rule book, but that's a whole other kettle of worms (can of fish?).

vic
« Last Edit: June 19, 2017, 05:39:07 AM by krusty »