Author Topic: El Mirage  (Read 59110 times)

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Offline jimmy six

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« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2006, 01:47:51 PM »
2 black roadsters spun, so that would make 6..JD
First GMC 6 powered Fuel roadster over 200, with 2 red hats. Pit crew for Patrick Tone's Super Stock #49 Camaro

Offline RichFox

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« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2006, 02:07:33 PM »
Kent; I believe Rick was running on your record, which was Jacks record with my motor at one time. Or maybe Rick was running on the "Trailer" record some guy set pulling an Airstream at Bonneville. If Rick was running on your record I would say you have a right to express interest.

Offline RichFox

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« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2006, 02:15:51 PM »
I am speaking to Jack now and he says the protest was disallowed

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« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2006, 02:29:34 PM »
Quote from: RichFox
I am speaking to Jack now and he says the protest was disallowed


That does not make sense. If the protest was filed and the money put up then I thought it had to go to the comittee and they would make the recommendation to the board who would vote on it within the next 30 days, usually at the next meeting.

Does anybody know what the protest specifically was? I had talked to Rick yesterday and he said to me that he believed he was being protested but he did not have the details.

There must be more to the story than what was posted here.

Offline Walter

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« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2006, 03:06:19 PM »
Anyone know which two black roadsters spun?

Offline Stan Back

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« Reply #20 on: October 23, 2006, 03:24:36 PM »
Norm Francis was one.  His time is posted (but not with a directional notation).
Past (Only) Member of the San Berdoo Roadsters -- "California's Most-Exclusive Roadster Club" -- 19 Years of Bonneville and/or El Mirage Street Roadster Records

Offline jimmy six

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« Reply #21 on: October 23, 2006, 03:51:03 PM »
The other one was #299 Ed Stuck. His 210 was on a 225 record ...That was 210 backwards and in the spin..Others who watched it said 225 was in the bag...
He took out a cone on the other sid of the finishline and it left an imprint in the aluminum grille shell cover. The steel 32 sheel was bent up but if was fiberglass he probably would have lost the hood too...
First GMC 6 powered Fuel roadster over 200, with 2 red hats. Pit crew for Patrick Tone's Super Stock #49 Camaro

Offline 1212FBGS

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« Reply #22 on: October 23, 2006, 05:40:48 PM »
Rich
no big deal... once i get my drive train dialed in, that record will come back.
kr

Offline NArias3

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« Reply #23 on: October 23, 2006, 05:55:04 PM »
Quote from: AJR192
Kent...You said you don't like Romero spreading gossip and rumors so why do you see yourself fit to? Let whoever who is actually involved with whatever is going on there decide if it needs to be posted here.


Let's practice what we preach!

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Offline RichFox

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« Reply #24 on: October 23, 2006, 06:15:10 PM »
Kent;  Sounds good to me.  Good luck.

Offline sickracer

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« Reply #25 on: October 24, 2006, 12:11:35 AM »
Quote from: 1212FBGS
Ok also....  I dont want a reputation as someone who posts negative stuff I only want to post usefull info, and opinion. I am the type of person who perfers to tell ya to your face if i dont like you and this typing stuff is for the birds. I dont want to be known as a slammer or basher. The name calling i did to romero should have done it in a pm.



What?

Offline Bob Jr.

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« Reply #26 on: October 24, 2006, 04:10:07 PM »
Quote from: 1212FBGS
Rich
no big deal... once i get my drive train dialed in, that record will come back.
kr


Lets start a pool I put $20.00 on Rick.......
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bak189

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« Reply #27 on: October 24, 2006, 08:11:07 PM »
Put my $20.00 on Kent

Offline fastesthonda_jim

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« Reply #28 on: October 25, 2006, 07:39:03 PM »
Jim Knapp here, the one who filed the protest.  Just so all y'all know what at least my "facts" are.

Following are two e-mails that I sent to the tech committee with my thoughts:

1st e-mail

Rick and his "fifth wheel trailer".  Personally I was very impressed with the out of the box (out of the car?) thinking and never want to stifle that sort of creative thinking, even if it's to my own detriment.   It's just too valuable a component of the racing we do.  So, how to allow it and still carry forth the spirit of the rule?  I was talking to Bob this morning and he said what if there is a rule addendum that said, "the vehicle must be able to demonstrate that it can accelerate while being powered by either engine."  It would certainly satisfy me, and Bob BTW.  Of course there would also have to be the safety thing, controllability from the driver's compartment, fuel shutoff, fire system, etc.
 
Anyway, something for you "powers that be" to chew on.

2nd e-mail

Hey, Dan,
 
I guess at least SBC is making some money off this protest.
 
I've been chatting around and spending some further time stewing about this whole deal.  And I know you've got a board meeting (at least I THINK you're on the board) this Friday to cuss and discuss this and other matters.  So here are some further points I would like to mention to you, and hope you mention to the board, in this whole deal.
 
And please, PUHLEEEESE know that I applaud the incredible out of the box thinking, and if Rick had done it properly I would merely stand in awe of what he did.
 
Issues:
The car was top speed of the meet in the first four meets this year averaging 255mph, and yet nowhere was there any John Bjorkman review of the new "trailer" addition, and no test runs of the clearly controversial new frame design were done.
The motor was a substance over form argument, i.e., more cubic inches were there, but it violated ?the spirit of the rules?, probably the single most important aspect of the interpretation of each and every rule in The Rule Book.
No 2 stoke gas/oil mix was available for the 2 stroke 500cc motor, so how did it run?
Fuel shutoff valve was represented as shutting the fuel pump off, a common method for motor cycles.  However, the fact remains that the main motor was injected at probably 45 ? 55 psi, and the 500 cc motorcycle motor was carbureted at probably 5-8 psi.  Where was the pressure regulator?
?The spark plug wire fell off.????  C?mon, Rick.  You didn't get to be five times Points Champion by building cars that have that happen.  I.e., Rick is a WAY better car builder than that.
In short, Dan, the 500cc motor did not run, and did not drive, nor was it capable of driving the car forward.  It was merely a subterfuge to make Championship Points in my opinion a clear and flagrant violation of "the Spirit of the Rules" notion that helps to keep us from having a rule book the size of a phone book.
 Further as to the safety of the "trailer":

Section 1.A. of the rule book states and it states in CAPITAL LETTERS to emphasize the importance of this point, ?VEHICLES SHALL BE PRESENTED FOR INSPECTION IN RACE READY CONDITION??  At no time during the tech/safety inspection of this vehicle did the 500 cc motor ever leave the back of Rick's pickup truck.   When asked by the inspector, (and I was standing right there) Rick said, ?It?s a supplemental power plant.?  The inspector said,  ?OK? and, as I recall, that was that.
No fire system.
No chain guard.
The housing/cover to prevent the parachute from hanging up was duct taped to the car.  DUCT TAPED!!  See photo in Cars 2 section of October meet on the SCTA-BNI web site to see this (besides it's the only place in October where you can see a picture of the Bomber).
No throttle cable.
Motor hinged (I believe this to be true, but did not see the car "assembled" myself) at the bottom, hence no possible downforce, other than a few pounds, and therefore no propulsive traction could be generated.
Phew!  A lot of stuff to consider, Dan-oh.  I know Rick was/is creative.  I know he's that kind of racer.  I just think overall it was a slap in the face to SCTA and the volunteers that make it all happen.
 

My further comment: The requirement that a motor actually accelerate the car would support the spirit of the rules and prevent us from becoming ECTA, i.e., just run anything you want in any class you want.  I mean if this protest falls through, my opinion, (to stretch my point only a little) is I can Duct Tape another Honda motor to the top of my liner and as long as it doesn't fall off I can set a record in any class I want.

Final remarks: And in closing, let me say, I APPLAUD THE OUT OF THE BOX/CAR THINKING.  I just think the way it was done was a bit of a cheap shot, and frankly after a long phone conversation with Rick Sunday night, speaking about his car/motor and about his current "challenges" I can see why he didn't have time to produce a device up to his normal standards of excellence.

Jim Knapp
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Offline Dean Los Angeles

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« Reply #29 on: October 25, 2006, 08:31:26 PM »
Jim, sounds like a good argument.
Quote
I was talking to Bob this morning and he said what if there is a rule addendum that said, "the vehicle must be able to demonstrate that it can accelerate while being powered by either engine."

So I take it that there isn't a requirement right now. I certainly don't see it in the rule book. And how on earth are you going to verify it? If the second engine moves the car AT ALL it would be legal even if it dropped 20 mph off the top speed.
 
Quote
The car was top speed of the meet in the first four meets this year averaging 255mph, and yet nowhere was there any John Bjorkman review of the new "trailer" addition, and no test runs of the clearly controversial new frame design were done.

This might be a safety issue, but hardly a protest issue.
Quote
The motor was a substance over form argument, i.e., more cubic inches were there, but it violated ?the spirit of the rules?, probably the single most important aspect of the interpretation of each and every rule in The Rule Book.

A rule book is a rule book. How can you verify that the engine was doing anything from a rule standpoint? It looked like it was hooked up to run.
2 stroke gas tank, fuel shut off valve, no pressure regulator, engine didn't run . . .   Not a rule violation in sight. Is this what we want to see in a race car? Nope. I suggest that you formulate rule changes that would disallow this sort of thing and submit them. Spirit of the rules? Who's spirit? What god do you pick to determine spirit? Not that there aren't lots of us out there that think we are god! Substitute "Opinion" for "Spirit" and you see where that would go.
Quote
therefore no propulsive traction could be generated.

Now you are really reaching. If the tire touches the racing surface it generates traction. Still not in the rule book as a requirement.
If the second motor was in the back of the truck for pre race tech inspection it was attached for post race rules inspection.

The whole deal wraps up to "does the second engine accelerate the vehicle." If all the check points you mention were on Rick's car and it was capable of moving forward one inch it would pass inspection. What if the second engine quit one second later?
I'm not dinging you at all, I just don't see rules that could prevent cherry picking. Yes, 243 isn't close to the 263 it ran without the second engine, no doubt from the dead engine drag, but he did go faster than the record.
I would be buying a lot of duct tape for the Barnyard Bomber :D
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