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Author Topic: FIA records  (Read 9114 times)
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TrickyDicky
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« on: February 02, 2017, 01:24:58 PM »

Who holds the FIA class A-I-12 record?

If your response is “Who cares?” I suggest you stop reading now.

If you are still with me …

The FIA modified the larger engine classes with effect from 1 January 2016.  Class 9 became 3-4 litre (previously 3-5 litre), Class 10 became 4-6 litre (previously 5-8 litre), Class 11 became 6-7 litre (previously over 8 litre), Class 12 was introduced at 7-8 litre and finally Class 13 at over 8 litres.

Thus the new Class 13 is the same as the old Class 11 and there are now four classes covering 3-8 litres (previously only two).  Although it is now over a year since the new classes came into existence, the FIA has not published updated records.

Which is how I found myself asking “who are the current holders of records in the new classes?”  It is by no means easy to work it out from the information freely available on the internet, and A-I-12 turns out to be particularly interesting.

In 2002 Al Teague set FIA records in Class A-I-10 at 406.xxx mph (1 kilometre flying start) and 405.xxx (mile).  As far as I can tell the engine size used was either 424 c.i. (6.95 litre) or 470 c.i. (7.7 litre).  So these runs might fit into either the new Class A-I-11 or A-I-12.

In 2012 George Poteet/Speed Demon set FIA records at 439.xxx mph for both the mile and kilometre using a 368 c.i. (6.03 litre) motor, so beating Al’s speeds and setting what I believe remains the A-I-11 record (but the engine was only just in that class).

However, if Al was using the 470 c.i. engine then he is a strong candidate to be the current A-I-12 record holder.

There is another reason to be uncertain.  In 2010 Amir Rosenbaum/Spectre SpeedLiner ran two way averages of 407.xxx for the mile and kilometre using a 485 c.i. (7.95 litre) engine with the timing under FIA conditions.  Whilst faster than Al these were not records because the 1% rule was still in force (meaning the speed required to set an official record was about 410 mph).  So Amir’s speeds were probably not submitted to the FIA and could not be official records.

If Al was running in what is now A-I-11 in 2002 then who else is a candidate for the A-I-12 record?

This is the point at which even I think of giving up.  The answer depends in part on the size of the Chevy motor in Nolan White’s Autopower streamliner …  Driven by Rick White, this vehicle set FIA records of 383.xxx mph (kilometre) and 384.xxx (mile) in 1990.  If the Autopower was running in what is now the A-I-12 class then I think they could be the current records.  If not, we might be going back to Bob Herda in the 1960s.

So, to summarise:
  • The fastest two way speeds that have been recorded under FIA conditions in class A-I-12 are 407.753 mph (kilometre) and 407.516 mph (mile) by Amir Rosenbaum on 24 September 2010, but these will probably not be acknowledged as records by the FIA.
  • The official record holder is probably Al Teague with 406.321 mph (kilometre) and 405.862 mph (mile) set on 18 October 2002, but only if he was running the 470 c.i. motor that day.
  • Otherwise, the record holder might be Rick White with 383.824 mph (kilometre) and 384.738 mph (mile) set on 1 October 1990, but only if his engine was in the 7-8 litre range.
  • Or maybe it was Bob Herda, who set official FIA records in 1964/65/67, at least one of which used engine(s) in the 7-8 litre range.

Phew!

There must be flaws in the above analysis so please tell me (politely smiley) where I have screwed up.  Or am I Dead Horse?

I am now beginning to understand why it is taking so long for the FIA to publish the list of current record holders for the not-so-new classes. shocked
« Last Edit: February 03, 2017, 08:20:29 AM by TrickyDicky » Logged
trimmers
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« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2017, 05:17:31 PM »

Well, the answer - according to the FIA's website - is "nobody"! 

It skips directly from the old 5L-8L, A-I-10 (with Speed Demon I in there at 439+) to A-I-13, with no listings at all for A-I-11 or A-I-12.

For A-I-10, it also says: "...as defined until 31.12.2014 - classification under review."

So, if you can book your spot with Cook now, and you're first in line - you could end up holding the record yourself - but probably not for very long!
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« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2017, 05:25:29 PM »

But seriously folks, I wonder if DW (or whoever) kept records on actual engine size, or just verified that size was within class limits.  Without the former, it may be impossible to sort it out for this class.  Maybe other classes, too. 
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dw230
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« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2017, 09:13:32 PM »

If you are referring to me as DW I don't "keep" records for FIA. I do the certification, hand the paperwork to the FIA steward(Dave Petreli) and let history take its course. I rely on the FIA/FIM to publish and maintain any records.

The OP asks who owns a record in a class approx. two years old. If the class started as open and no one has run it follows that the class remains open. Contrary to opinions and wishes there is not much competition in the LSR arm of motor sports.

DW
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« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2017, 04:12:25 AM »

For A-I-10, it also says: "...as defined until 31.12.2014 - classification under review."

I was the other day in contact with the FIA.....as I mentioned after the class changes...it will be tough to get all the necessary engine sizes....

and this is the reason why there is currently no clean up in the classes with the new displacement sizes...this was a comment I got.....

I was asked about several records...I have speed and time, but not the exact engine size.....and the question is, if it's possible to get all this numbers

Dan (Warner) done over the years a very accurate job....but some of the records go way back before his time....hope they took so care as Dan...and the paperwork still exist.
for Bonneville, maybe Dave Petrali got this data's in his files....

it's possible that an old Mercedes Record from Dessau 1939 will be back in the record list.....

to Amir Rosenbaum and his Speed by Spectre......he is one of the "loser" under the old 1 percent rule.....he didn't broke the record under the old rule....so his average will never be a record...bad luck for him...but he is not alone.....
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Pork Pie

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« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2017, 06:59:20 AM »

If you are referring to me as DW I don't "keep" records for FIA.

Well, of course I was referring to you.  However, I guess "keep" was a poor choice in wording.   The real question for this thread would be: when you're doing a certification, do you include the actual engine size (or just the fact that it's within class limits) in the paperwork you give to Dave Petrali?
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TrickyDicky
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« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2017, 05:02:11 PM »

...

The OP asks who owns a record in a class approx. two years old. If the class started as open ...

DW

I don't think that's how the FIA works. The classes are not open - the FIA are just taking a while publishing the re-distribution of existing records amongst the new classes.

This may only come to a head if someone wants to challenge records in these classes at the 2017 Shootout.
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TrickyDicky
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« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2017, 05:04:59 PM »

For A-I-10, it also says: "...as defined until 31.12.2014 - classification under review."

...

it's possible that an old Mercedes Record from Dessau 1939 will be back in the record list.....

...

Thomas, I'm not sure about Dessau 1939, but how about Gyon 1934?
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TrickyDicky
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« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2017, 05:12:52 PM »

Well, the answer - according to the FIA's website - is "nobody"! 

...

For A-I-10, it also says: "...as defined until 31.12.2014 - classification under review."

...

I don't think the FIA web site should be interpreted as stating "nobody". It's simply that they are reviewing who should be recorded as the current record holder.

FWIW, there is (yet another) FIA typo: the date should be 31.12.2015
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Malcolm UK
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« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2017, 07:27:32 AM »

I am glad that you did not give up 'Tricky', as you have exposed a problem with what might have seemed at first to be a good idea in the FIA Commission.

A simple way forward would have been, and still could be, to place all of the existing records in a place where they could be seen, but no longer challenged. Other speed governing bodies have used this method. Anyone holding a record prior to January 2016 will be a world record holder forever, with a speed that could not be 'beaten'.

The three new capacity divisions would then be deemed 'open' and new challengers for the short distance flying start records would need to form an orderly line at the 'Shootout 2017'. With entries and fees to be paid that would be a "win - win" for the event organiser for the entry fees and for the FIA with its facility and ratification fees.

The longer this drags on who will take any interest in challenging records in these capacity divisions. Do not forget that the 'unblown' category in spark ignition and both of the diesel catagories (blown and unblown) face the same problem!

The only hope that I have is that, if it is proven that Amir with Speed by Spectre did not have to (on paper) run against Al's speeds there could surely still be sufficient information available today for a retrospective claim (with an appropriate fee of course) to be made on beating the 'slower' speed of Rick White, should they still wish to be an FIA World record holder.   
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« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2017, 02:31:51 PM »

"Tricky",

about record breaking in the 30's in Europe...

1934 - Gyon (Hungaria)...Mercedes use here a straight "Autobahn" to set new records in the lower classes....mostly modified "Grand Prix" racer

they also run for long distance at the Avus in Berlin

Auto Union used in 1935 a straight country road in Italy....close to Lucca.....Alfa Romeo was the next who used this road....I had the chance to drive this road close to Lucca a couple years ago....it was everything but not safe and several record attempts at this road end in an disaster...

later in 1935 the Autobahn between Darmstadt and Frankfurt was ready to use....Auto Union and Mercedes run at that part of the Autobahn...later MG (Goldie Gardner) joint the German teams.

January 1938 Rosemeyer had there his fatal accident....meanwhile a Autobahn close to Dessau was in built.....especially built for the Mercedes T80. The three axle streamliner with the big aero engine installed.....the goal was to reach 600+ km/h (app. 375 mph) on this Autobahn part....but first it was used, again for the smaller classes from Mercedes - after Rosemeyer's accident Auto Union stepped back from record breaking.....Mercedes run two nearly identical "Cigar"...one for standing start and one for flying start...the flying start version had engine issues...but they found out that the standing start fuel tank was big enough to go for the flying records...Carraciola run in the category from 2-3 liter....
121-180 ci.....nearly 400 km/h (248 mph)...the successful Frankfurt car had also engine issues....he had tires rated for 300+ mph...the idea was to go with this streamliner over 300.......this was in February 1939...and this was the last record attempts.....
The T80 "run" only one time....as a roller without engine downhill at an Autobahn part called "Bocksberg"....

one of the standing starts record was broken in the 60's by Mickey Thompson....and another record will be back into the record book....have to check which one....

About Amir....if the FIA accept this runs as a record....than there will be a "flood" of requests to get "no to be records by the 1 percent rule".....into the record book....

About the date 2014....in 2015 no record was set in this displacement sizes....the only record in 2015 was the Buckeye Electric car....and this streamliner is not effected from this change...
« Last Edit: February 05, 2017, 02:43:17 PM by PorkPie » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2017, 04:53:08 PM »

Pork Pie,

As Amir did not beat the record in the class as it existed before the extra sub divisions by 1% I can understand why he was not in the record book or allowed to be put forward for a record. However, if as Tricky has analysed the available data, Amir might be accepted as a valid entrant in the new Class 12, where he could have been running against the Rick White speed, (not the Al Teague speed), a speed which he exceeded by much more than 1%, so a speed record which would have been accepted under the 1%. The situation is just one of correcting to the new class divisions, not worrying about the now lost 1% huh.  The new classes were published in Appendix D in December 2015 for use from January 2016.

[I have disliked the application of the 1% rule to the Absolute World Records list.  Why,because the standing start one mile World record in class A-XV-10 is taken as the accepted 'absolute World record' at 97.983 mph, yet the World record in A-II-1 for the standing start 1 mile is accepted at 98.093 mph. Glad the 1% rule is no more, but the absolute "fastest speed regardless of Group, category, class" clearly has not been revisited. Sorry, ammunition for another thread probably on a different forum. evil]
« Last Edit: February 05, 2017, 05:01:52 PM by Malcolm UK » Logged

Malcolm UK, Derby, England.
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« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2017, 05:13:41 PM »

Malcolm,

seeing it the way as you (from the view of an now slower record)....this would be great for Amir....

But the reality is unfortunately different....since when did the FIA "correct" his record list after a rule change....over the last 70...maybe 90 years...never....so much changes was done without any correction to earlier runs which was effect by the old rule....

when the first two way record was set at Brooklands (Hornsted) the record was slower than the previous record.....in 64/65 they need also a while to clean up the mess....

and the easiest solution...so as the FIM done it a long time ago....just freeze the old record and start again....using old records when they match into the new class...finish....

hope that the FIA can make a clean cut before the record season (under FIA) 2017 starts....otherwise we will have a nightmare....when the current record is unknown...
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« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2017, 02:51:29 AM »

Malcolm,

...

when the first two way record was set at Brooklands (Hornsted) the record was slower than the previous record.....


Question for the historians: I understand the two-way rule was put in place (in Europe, anyway) in 1911. So why did it take three years for the first two-way record to be set?
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TrickyDicky
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« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2017, 02:55:06 AM »

...

and the easiest solution...so as the FIM done it a long time ago....just freeze the old record and start again....using old records when they match into the new class...finish....

...

As someone interested in the history of LSR, where can I find a complete list of the "frozen" FIM records (from 1979 I believe).
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