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Author Topic: FIA records  (Read 8277 times)
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Malcolm UK
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« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2017, 07:06:45 AM »

May be of use to you Tricky - the official FIM word on 'frozen records' is as follows:

"Due to the new method of calculation, introduced by the FIM TECHNICAL COMMISSION in JANUARY 1978, short distance records made prior to this date are absolute and therefore cannot be broken.
Consequently, these records are definite and cannot be broken. They are included in a separate section of the World Records Book (1979 Publication) for historical purposes only".

[I have not seenthe 1979 publication myself ].
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Malcolm UK, Derby, England.
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« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2017, 07:26:15 AM »

and the easiest solution...so as the FIM done it a long time ago....just freeze the old record and start again....using old records when they match into the new class...finish....hope that the FIA can make a clean cut before the record season (under FIA) 2017 starts

I share your hope that the classes are clearly defined with 'open records', where a division of capacity has not been used before. It is some years since I had to fill out an International (world) record attempt application form, but in the past I thought the entrant had to signify which existing records they would be attempting to exceed. If the FIA cannot produce a list, then entry forms in some classes could be only partially completed, (which may make them ineligible). The powers that be have a few months to sort it all out.

As to the 1911 to 1914 'gap' I think it may just have been a lack of fast European cars being made ready or available. Fred Kasmann's listing shows few drivers made attempts. 
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Malcolm UK, Derby, England.
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« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2017, 09:36:29 AM »

May be of use to you Tricky - the official FIM word on 'frozen records' is as follows:

"Due to the new method of calculation, introduced by the FIM TECHNICAL COMMISSION in JANUARY 1978, short distance records made prior to this date are absolute and therefore cannot be broken.
Consequently, these records are definite and cannot be broken. They are included in a separate section of the World Records Book (1979 Publication) for historical purposes only".

[I have not seen the 1979 publication myself ].

So it was the records as they stood at the end of 1977 that were frozen?

Also meaning that Don Vesco’s records set in August 1978 on/in the Kawasaki Lightning Bolt must have been amongst the first to have been set under the “new” rules.
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TrickyDicky
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« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2017, 09:55:35 AM »

For A-I-10, it also says: "...as defined until 31.12.2014 - classification under review."

...

it's possible that an old Mercedes Record from Dessau 1939 will be back in the record list.....

...

Thomas, I'm not sure about Dessau 1939, but how about Gyon 1934?


My reading of the history books is that the Mercedes records set in 1939 at Dessau used a 3 litre engine (Class D as it was then, now Class A-I-8).  Therefore they cannot be current FIA records.

On the other hand, in October 1934 Rudolf Caracciola with the Mercedes Benz W25 set Class C records of 197.347 mph (kilometre) and 196.775 mph (mile). Rather unusually the engine size was just under 4 litres in a 3-5 litre class.  As far as I can tell these should be the current FIA A-I-9 class records.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2017, 10:00:01 AM by TrickyDicky » Logged
trimmers
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« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2017, 05:30:01 PM »

Also meaning that Don Vesco’s records set in August 1978 on/in the Kawasaki Lightning Bolt must have been amongst the first to have been set under the “new” rules.

Kawasaki?  Did FIM change their classes simultaneously with FIA?
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TrickyDicky
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« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2017, 06:05:52 PM »

Also meaning that Don Vesco’s records set in August 1978 on/in the Kawasaki Lightning Bolt must have been amongst the first to have been set under the “new” rules.

Kawasaki?  Did FIM change their classes simultaneously with FIA?

Apologies for any confusion - there are two conversations going on at once. FIA rules changed January 2016 and I have learnt here that FIM rules changed January 1978?
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PorkPie
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« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2017, 02:06:30 PM »

For A-I-10, it also says: "...as defined until 31.12.2014 - classification under review."

...



...




My reading of the history books is that the Mercedes records set in 1939 at Dessau used a 3 litre engine (Class D as it was then, now Class A-I-8).  Therefore they cannot be current FIA records.

On the other hand, in October 1934 Rudolf Caracciola with the Mercedes Benz W25 set Class C records of 197.347 mph (kilometre) and 196.775 mph (mile). Rather unusually the engine size was just under 4 litres in a 3-5 litre class.  As far as I can tell these should be the current FIA A-I-9 class records.

"Tricky", sorry that I didn't answer before...we had for the last two days no phone or internet connection at my town...

I understand now what you like to say.....

Dessau 1939 was under 3 liter...no changes in the new FIA list

Gyon 1934, the engine was close to 4 liter....and the later record breakers used engines closer to 5 liter....maybe there will be not only a change on the short distance...the same engine was used at the Avus for long distance.....

I checked the record lists I got....digital goes back for about 20 years....unfortunately I have no complete list from the time before the big changes in 1965....

the record from Herda (1965) and Hoffman & Markley (1992) was set with bigger engines...H & M used a 300 ci (means close to 5 liter)...when I remember right, Herda's engine was similar in the size...

so I have no information which record Herda broke.....did you have any information to this record holder....
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Pork Pie

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« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2017, 08:15:28 AM »

For A-I-10, it also says: "...as defined until 31.12.2014 - classification under review."

...




My reading of the history books is that the Mercedes records set in 1939 at Dessau used a 3 litre engine (Class D as it was then, now Class A-I-8).  Therefore they cannot be current FIA records.

On the other hand, in October 1934 Rudolf Caracciola with the Mercedes Benz W25 set Class C records of 197.347 mph (kilometre) and 196.775 mph (mile). Rather unusually the engine size was just under 4 litres in a 3-5 litre class.  As far as I can tell these should be the current FIA A-I-9 class records.


.....

I checked the record lists I got....digital goes back for about 20 years....unfortunately I have no complete list from the time before the big changes in 1965....

the record from Herda (1965) and Hoffman & Markley (1992) was set with bigger engines...H & M used a 300 ci (means close to 5 liter)...when I remember right, Herda's engine was similar in the size...

so I have no information which record Herda broke.....did you have any information to this record holder....

My information about Bob Herda's FIA records in the 1960s is very sketchy, so what follows is subject to correction.

In my original post I was speculating on the A-I-12 (7-8 litre) records, which means records from the previous 5-8 litre class (Class B in the early 1960s, which became Class 10 at some time I cannot determine) are the candidates.

My "research" indicates that Bob Herda set FIA records on four occasions, three in Class B (October 1964, October 1965 and November 1967) and one in Class C (November 1965).  Probably, the Class B records used a 7+ litre engine.  There are references to 442 c.i., 446 and 448 c.i. but I cannot confirm the capacity of the engine that was used to set any particular FIA record.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2017, 09:06:51 AM by TrickyDicky » Logged
PorkPie
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« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2017, 12:58:37 PM »

Tricky,

I got some answer to your very first note in this thread.

when I went through my material about Al Teague for an article I had to write, I found following information.

in 1991 Al run a 493 ci engine...which means 8,0788 liter...this means now engine size 13

in 2002 Al run a 480 ci engine...which means 7.8657 liter...which will get him into the new size 12....

if George Poteet had run his both records in the old 10 in 2012 with the 368 engine (and I got no other information)...his record will be in the new size 11

the 1991 will be in the now size 13 and was broken by Tom Burkland, he was in the mile and the kilo 1 percent quicker than Al....

So Al will be with his 2002 record back into the record book.
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Pork Pie

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« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2017, 04:44:45 PM »

Kind of reminds me of who's on first! Good grief changes for progress. Engine size by numbers from 1 to 25 or more? Not cubes or liter wow what progress.   shocked
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TrickyDicky
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« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2017, 08:04:10 AM »

Tricky,

I got some answer to your very first note in this thread.

when I went through my material about Al Teague for an article I had to write, I found following information.

in 1991 Al run a 493 ci engine...which means 8,0788 liter...this means now engine size 13

in 2002 Al run a 480 ci engine...which means 7.8657 liter...which will get him into the new size 12....

if George Poteet had run his both records in the old 10 in 2012 with the 368 engine (and I got no other information)...his record will be in the new size 11

the 1991 will be in the now size 13 and was broken by Tom Burkland, he was in the mile and the kilo 1 percent quicker than Al....

So Al will be with his 2002 record back into the record book.

Thank you Thomas.  Are you quoting from the original documentation supporting the record claims?

For Al in 1991 I had 490 c.i., but either way it's over 8 litres so we agree on Class 13.

For 2002 I don't have clear information, but now fairly sure it's 470 c.i. or 480 c.i., so I agree on Class 12 (and should emerge as the current record holder).

I am nearly certain George Poteet in 2012 used the 368 c.i. engine.  The 'Demon's Dozen' book would probably confirm.

It's the Class 9 (3-4 litre) records that are most difficult to track down ...
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PorkPie
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« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2017, 10:36:41 AM »

Tricky,


the best source you can get....Al himself..... grin
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Pork Pie

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« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2017, 11:46:59 PM »

So if anything actually changed, would FIA want it's usual Swillion Dollar fee to log it??
  Sid.
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TrickyDicky
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« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2017, 01:46:07 AM »

So if anything actually changed, would FIA want it's usual Swillion Dollar fee to log it??
  Sid.

What did they charge for investigating and revising the 1991 km record?
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« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2017, 11:18:30 AM »

Since you like to answer a question with a question instead of simple information, who's mistake was that?
  Sid.
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