Author Topic: Wheel Rules  (Read 7953 times)

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Offline Harold Bettes

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Wheel Rules
« on: October 17, 2006, 08:14:42 PM »
Yeah, I know that you have to have 'em, but help me to understand something. I had seen recently somewhere about a hassle with aluminum wheels on the salt. What gives with that? The aluminum units are typically very straight (very little run-out) and would seem more than strong enough for the task. What am I missing here?

Thanks in advance,
Regards to All,
HB2
If it was easy, everybody would be doing it.

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Offline Dynoroom

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Wheel 'em in...
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2006, 09:26:44 PM »
Good question Harold,
Part of it has to do with weight of the vehicle, the surface we run on and the rules. I?ll start with the rules.  The 2006 rule book pg.12 1 N COURSE DAMAGE: if you show a tendency to damage the track you will be barred from competing. Pg. 17 2 F TIRES: 4th paragraph, any non- pneumatic wheel/tire combination (no rubber) must be submitted for approval to the contest board in writing within 45 days prior to an event. It doesn?t say you ?cant? run alloy wheels (several teams have or do) it just gives you some hoops to jump through. This is because in the past some cars have left ruts in the racing surface either by having to much weight on the wheels, incorrect design, or ??? So the board would like to see your design before you build something they have seen to show damage in the past. Lastly alloy wheels have had some directional stability problems, this may well be solved with a ?tread? pattern. I also know a competitor or 2 who has gone very fast on alloy wheels. So it can be done. Just remember it's the people behind you who the SCTA's worried about.
Michael LeFevers
Kugel and LeFevers Pontiac Firebird

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Offline hotrod

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Wheel Rules
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2006, 09:44:26 PM »
I think Harold is refering to common rubber tired aluminum alloy wheels, not custom all metal wheels.

The issues I have heard of is corrosion, and cracking.

I think steel wheels are a bit more "accident friendly" than the alloy wheels.

Larry

Offline Harold Bettes

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« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2006, 11:19:54 PM »
Yeah guys,
I was referring to normal aluminum wheels with tires on them. Since I mentioned tires here, has anyone typically run any of the circle track radial slick tires on the salt? I was not even close to thinking about running metal against the salt. That would be too weird for what I had in mind.

HB2
If it was easy, everybody would be doing it.

As iron sharpens iron, one man sharpens another.

Offline Dynoroom

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Wheel Rules
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2006, 11:25:46 PM »
In that case let me say oops! You did say wheels after all. In that case what Hot Rod said.
Most of us use "special" steel wheels that are trued in both planes, some to less than .005 - .010 of runout TIR.
Michael LeFevers
Kugel and LeFevers Pontiac Firebird

Without Data You're Just Another Guy With An Opinion!

Racing is just a series of "Problem Solving" events that allow you to spend money & make noise...

Offline Harold Bettes

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wheels and tars
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2006, 11:33:24 PM »
What I can't understand is why so many folks use the steel wheels. Is is potential side loading in spins? It would seem that the rotational inertia of the steel pieces would be somewhat more than the aluminum units. But maybe that is picking the flystuff from the pepper.

Rgds,
HB2
If it was easy, everybody would be doing it.

As iron sharpens iron, one man sharpens another.

Offline Bob Beatty

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Wheel Rules
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2006, 08:11:04 AM »
Harold,
Many of the tires we run call for air pressure in the 80 to 100# range to limit sidewall deflection and heat build-up.  I know of teams that run more than that.  These pressures are beyond the structural limits of most aluminum wheels.
Bob Beatty
 
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Offline Harold Bettes

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wheels and loading
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2006, 03:14:53 PM »
Thanks for the wake-up data. I did not even think of inflation pressures even being an issue.

I have some M/T Bonneville tires and since they are not yet inflated, did not even think of how much wind to put in them. My junk will probably be hard pressed to make much speed over 200 or so (perhaps wishful thinking). I guessed that the things were to be inflated at about 50-60psi.

Any comments on using the circle track radials? I have a pair of them (Goodyear) as well, but they might be too wide and encourage wheel slip on the salt from floatation.

Regards,
HB2
If it was easy, everybody would be doing it.

As iron sharpens iron, one man sharpens another.

Offline jackson

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Wheel Rules
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2006, 05:07:15 PM »
There was a lakester running circle track tires this year at WOS.  They made it over to the long course on them, so I guess it worked for them.

Offline jimmy six

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Wheel Rules
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2006, 06:15:53 PM »
HB, I have been using all types of wheels for the last 30 years. Cast aluminum, forged aluminum, and steel (stock & custom). The aluminum wheels have always been the truest. I have never had problems with corrosion. I take them off the car each year and check all of the external surfaces.

I have found cast wheels made by Kelsey-Hayes for General Motors to be very good. I run no more than 60# in them. Forged aluminum wheels by Wheel Vintiques were perfect (18x7) Centerline 2-piece were excellant.

Today alloy wheels can be powder coated if you are worried about salt problems. However I have never had any.

Wheels are persons own choice with the exception of a specific size. I prefer the unsprung weight to be light.

Good Luck.................JD.
First GMC 6 powered Fuel roadster over 200, with 2 red hats. Pit crew for Patrick Tone's Super Stock #49 Camaro

Offline Harold Bettes

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rolling on with wheels
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2006, 12:56:55 AM »
Thanks for sharing such good information. As luck would have it, some of the wheels that I have are indeed Centerline units.

Now as an additional kicker: Do guys normally run the tires as tubeless?

Anything for warnings against running M/T Bonneville tires in the rear and Goodyear front runners in the front?

The only reason that I am asking these questions so early is that the rest of the vehicle will be arranged around the tires/wheels in order to have the right sizes and the stance of the vehicle relative to aero considerations and overall gear ratio.

Thanks again.
HB2
If it was easy, everybody would be doing it.

As iron sharpens iron, one man sharpens another.

Offline Sumner

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Re: rolling on with wheels
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2006, 12:49:10 PM »
Quote from: Harold Bettes
Thanks for sharing such good information. As luck would have it, some of the wheels that I have are indeed Centerline units.

Now as an additional kicker: Do guys normally run the tires as tubeless?

Anything for warnings against running M/T Bonneville tires in the rear and Goodyear front runners in the front?

The only reason that I am asking these questions so early is that the rest of the vehicle will be arranged around the tires/wheels in order to have the right sizes and the stance of the vehicle relative to aero considerations and overall gear ratio.

Thanks again.
HB2


From what I can find out Goodyear likes you to mount their tires a certain way in regards to the serial number and which side of the car the tire is on.  

I have what I think is right on my site at the following link, but you might want to double check this info:

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/construction%20page-11.html

c ya,

Sum

Offline jimmy six

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Wheel Rules
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2006, 01:33:37 PM »
I have never heard of a problem with mixing brands fromt to rear. I personally like M & H on the front. Have used Firestones also but not over 200. Mickeys, Dunlops and GY on the rear with no problems...Good Luck
First GMC 6 powered Fuel roadster over 200, with 2 red hats. Pit crew for Patrick Tone's Super Stock #49 Camaro

Offline Harold Bettes

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tires at speed
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2006, 01:42:43 PM »
Thanks for the information.

I probably did not make myself clear on the mix and match of front and rear tires. I was concerned about the bias ply front runners vs the radial circle track tires on the rear.

Do folks run these things as tubeless installs? Do they use liners? Inner tubes?

Thanks in advance.

HB2
If it was easy, everybody would be doing it.

As iron sharpens iron, one man sharpens another.

Offline hotrod

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Wheel Rules
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2006, 05:14:00 PM »
I can't help you with those specific tires, but I do know from personal experience that on normal street tires mixing bias and radials front to rear makes for an EVIL handling car.

I bought a used car from a guy at work once that had mixed tires and it was not fun to drive until I put new tires on it.

The radials and bias ply tires behave very differently on small ruts and undulations on the road surface. The Bias tires want to follow the ruts and the radials pretty much ignore them. The result is as you cross an oblique rut or seam in the road the bias ply axle tries to jump out from under the car.

At the high tire pressures run on the salt it may not matter much but I would be very reluctant to try it with out a  lot of slow and careful tests with gradually increasing speeds.

Larry