FIA Category A Groups question

[trimmers]

After attending Cook's Shootout 3 or 4 times and reading what I could find, I think I've got a pretty good handle on the FIA process and classes - even with the new class divisions.

However, I can't figure out what Groups XII and XIII (in Category A) might be.

Can anybody enlighten me?   

[Seldom Seen Slim]

Those are reserved for left-handed drivers.

[trimmers]

As long as we're at it, howze about Category A, Group XIV?  According to Appendix D on the FIA's website, it's for automobiles with an electrical engine, but which are powered by either fuels containing carbon or hydrogen, rather than electricity (Group VIII) or solar (Group VII).   What might this be?  Sounds like something Electro-Motive might build!

[RichFox]

Ford ran a Focus with a Hydrogen fuel cell. The Hydrogen passed through a membrane and produced electricity and water. At least as I understood it. Whatever, it was very fast.

[Seldom Seen Slim]

Rick Byrnes drove the Fusion, Lee Kennedy in hot pursuit (going down the course with a pressure tank of hydrogen caused a bit of a flurry).  The car got over 2, as I remember, and it sported the old Barney Oldfield #999 - by special arrangement with Sam Wheeler, to whom the number was assigned at the time.  It was quite the technological display.

[4-barrel Mike]

http://www.caranddriver.com/news/ford-fusion-hydrogen-999-car-news

Mike

[trimmers]

This sounds like you might be discussing two different cars.

If the Focus was powered by a hydrogen fuel cell, then it's in an altogether different Group, which would be category A, Group XIV "Hydrogen Fuel Cell Engine".  "Class" is weight-dependent.  is A few years ago, Buckeye Bullet ran on hydrogen fuel cells, and it still holds some records there.  So, it would certainly fit.

As for the Fusion, it sounds like that might have been a normal ICE (piston or Wankel) that just burned hydrogen as i's fuel.  If so, then it would be Group XV (blown) or XVI (normally aspirated), and these classes depend on engine size.

But what kind of set up would burn "fuels containing carbon" to power an electrical engine, but which is NOT a hybrid?

[RichFox]

No. I said Focus because i don't know one new car from another. I meant the Fusion. It was electric. No engine.

[Seldom Seen Slim]

Nope - the car was a Fusion running on fuel cells -- no "engine" of any kind, just electric motor(s?) on electricity generated in the cells.

I don't know that the car ran for records or T/O -- but getting it over 200 was one of the big goals.  Rick sometimes hangs around this Forum -- maye he'l see this discussion and tell us some stories.

[Malcolm UK]

However, I can't figure out what Groups XII and XIII (in Category A) might be.

These appear to have been dropped as groups for 2016. Would need to do some research to help find out if they were ever allocated in earlier editions of appendix D.

Following that there was the XIV query and the word 'hybrid':-
 
I am sure that someone clever person could produce a vehicle in XIV which uses (say) and ic engine powering a generator and then electric motor(s) without there being any electrical storage. Hydrogen in this context appears to be the fuel cell creating electrical output powering the motor(s).

The FIA appear to use 'Hybrid Engine' in XI just as a catch-all phrase to allow for a vehicle with a mix of any two of or all five 'external power source types' - carbon fuelled engine; hydrogen fuelled engine; fuel cell 'engine'; batteries or accumulators or capacitors; or even solar panels (producing electricity). They perhaps use this to catch up to the very complex 'hybridisation' featured in F1 cars and World Endurance sports cars (?).

[Now, should you want to use a steam engine (X) then the fuel does not appear to be specified - so, coal anyone!]

[4-barrel Mike]

Rich, you must have been  remembering the title of this thread from back then "Focus on hydrogen at '07 SW"  :

http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,2996.0.html

Mike

[TrickyDicky]

...
However, I can't figure out what Groups XII and XIII (in Category A) might be.
...   

As Malcolm UK has pointed out, Groups XII and XIII effectively have no meaning as of 2016.  As far as I can tell the numbers never have been used in Category A.  I can guess that the FIA didn't want to re-use numbers to mean different things in different Categories but have no evidence for this. 

In Category B they used to be (but are no longer?):

     XII - Voitures homologuées en T1 avec suralimentation

     XIII - Voitures homologuées en T1 sans suralimentation

This seems to mean production off-road vehicles with and without supercharger.  Possibly the only record holder was a Subaru Forester running at Indianapolis in 1996.  The 2016 list states "RECORDS FROZEN AS OF 01.01.2016 - THIS GROUP HAS BEEN REDEFINED AS OF 01.01.2016".  But who cares?
If you want a bit of fun trimmers, try looking at the Category A records published by the FIA and see how many errors you can find.