Author Topic: Safety concerns in our racing.  (Read 20428 times)

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Offline Avanti Kid

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Safety concerns in our racing.
« on: July 26, 2016, 01:23:31 PM »
Hi everyone, some of you know I've raced in Land Speed racing for 23 years, lately I have three safety concerns that I wondering what your opinions about them would be,
 1st one is using the rear spoiler on some cars that have spun out at over 200 mph for any reason, the rear spoiler catches the air when the vehilce is going backwards, causing the car to lift up and flip and crash, my suggestion is use the 2nd way our Rule book calls out the method for installing a rear spoiler, use the one that has the hinge which if you are going backwards would just dump the (air) lifting of the car via the rear wing, maybe avoiding a crash.
 2nd one, some folks have their dry sump tank in the passenger seat area of their race car, my concern is what would happen if one of those very hot oil lines came of during a run and prayed hot oil on the driver?? My suggestion is to install a sheet Lexan between the driver and the dry sump tank.
 3rd, do we need to pay more attention to the loads we put on our tires so we do not load them past their specs?? I know that ballast is our friend at Bonneville, but do we need to know the weight on the tires from static loads and down force from rear spoiler or front air dam?? Thanks, looking forward to some responses, Dave Bloomberg  :cheers:
Original owner of 1963 Avanti; Age 84
2006 Bonneville 200 MPH Club Member
Canyon Country, CA
215.6 mph 289 CI Studebaker engine

Offline metermatch

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Re: Safety concerns in our racing.
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2016, 01:48:34 PM »
I don't believe there is much pressure on the oil lines to/from the tank.  Hard to see them coming apart.  Has there been any that have come apart, needing a change in rules?  If there is concern for oil spray during a crash, I think sheets of lexan would be one more thing to impale the driver with, and probably wouldn't survive the crash anyway.  I don't think there would be much diffference between a oil tank in the car, or the engine blowing up in a front engine open car.  You are still going to get covered in hot junk.

Jeff

Offline bbarn

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Re: Safety concerns in our racing.
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2016, 02:37:50 PM »
I think you should do everything and anything you can to reduce your risk. The more choices that you make to reduce your risk increases the chances by and equal amount that you will have an enjoyable experience.

Sometimes it is hard to find the right place for something. That passenger compartment is big and full of room to put things. I have seen oil tanks and I have seen turbos sitting in the passenger seat. There sometimes isn't enough engineering time to get everything just right.

That said, if it looks wrong or dangerous it probably is and you should change it. If it doesn't look wrong or dangerous, maybe you haven't looked at it hard enough.  :-D

Do whatever you can to raise the margin of safety as close to 100% as you possible can in everything you do, not just LSR.
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Offline Avanti Kid

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Re: Safety concerns in our racing.
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2016, 03:15:18 PM »
Thanks guys for your responses, I just wanted to bring up some things that maybe new racers have not thought of, the official way for me to suggest changes is thru the SCTA rules changes procedures, which I will look into if there is enough interest, item #2 is already in the rule book, I appreciate and pros or cons, thanks
Original owner of 1963 Avanti; Age 84
2006 Bonneville 200 MPH Club Member
Canyon Country, CA
215.6 mph 289 CI Studebaker engine

Offline kiwi belly tank

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Re: Safety concerns in our racing.
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2016, 05:03:18 PM »
If you have something in your vehicle you don't like, then change it but don't go about hunting down unnecessary rule changes inflicting more work & expense to racers, most of whom run on tight budgets.
  Did.

Offline jl222

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Re: Safety concerns in our racing.
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2016, 09:47:37 PM »
   
  Avanti... name me a car that has flipped and crashed from the rear spoiler catching air.

 Most spins and crashes that I have seen videos of were of coupes with no spoilers or stock ones, resulting in rear lift and loss of traction.

  The 222 Camaro has a spoiler built to max SCTA rules and I have spun out at over 260 mph with no lift and stayed flat.
 Spin was caused by rain on track.

  We have a lot of weight on the rear tires but not nearly as much as other fast cars have ran.

  As far as weight,speed and tire pressure limits. It's called cover your ass.

  I personally have driven the 222 Camaro  288 mph with a 279mph exit speed with the regular front runners [ this was before the 300 mph tires were available] and with 45lbs of air, not the roller skating 90lbs recommended.

  Do as Sid says.

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Offline Avanti Kid

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Re: Safety concerns in our racing.
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2016, 11:04:01 PM »
I did see years ago a video of a Corvette that spun at high speed and when going backwards, the car started going up in the air while going backwards, but then the video showed the rear spoiler coming off the car, then the cars came back down on the salt and did not flip, just spun and was OK, but that is why the Rule book does call out a rear spoiler that has a hinge to dump that air, its up to you which spoiler system you chose in the rule book. Glad you have been doing very well with your car at extremely high speeds, Dave.
Original owner of 1963 Avanti; Age 84
2006 Bonneville 200 MPH Club Member
Canyon Country, CA
215.6 mph 289 CI Studebaker engine

Offline bbarn

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Re: Safety concerns in our racing.
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2016, 08:51:24 AM »
   
  Avanti... name me a car that has flipped and crashed from the rear spoiler catching air.

 Most spins and crashes that I have seen videos of were of coupes with no spoilers or stock ones, resulting in rear lift and loss of traction.

  The 222 Camaro has a spoiler built to max SCTA rules and I have spun out at over 260 mph with no lift and stayed flat.
 Spin was caused by rain on track.

  We have a lot of weight on the rear tires but not nearly as much as other fast cars have ran.

  As far as weight,speed and tire pressure limits. It's called cover your Acura.

  I personally have driven the 222 Camaro  288 mph with a 279mph exit speed with the regular front runners [ this was before the 300 mph tires were available] and with 45lbs of air, not the roller skating 90lbs recommended.

  Do as Sid says.

                           JL222

     


This is the only one I can think of off the top of my head....

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Offline Seldom Seen Slim

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Re: Safety concerns in our racing.
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2016, 10:04:10 AM »
Bob Johnson's Caddy C/C?
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Offline Glen

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Re: Safety concerns in our racing.
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2016, 10:11:14 AM »
Stringfelllow and Kirk. but there has been several other blow overs as well.
Glen
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Offline javajoe79

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Re: Safety concerns in our racing.
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2016, 10:13:07 AM »
 
 Spin was caused by rain on track.

You don't suppose the 3 million horsepower had anything to do with it do you?   :cheers:


Not sure the rule book calls for a hinge so that the spoiler will flip up. I think most cars have the hinge to allow adjustment of the angle of the spoiler. However, I built the spoiler on the firebird to flip up and it has limiting cables to work like a roof flap would.

As for the dry sump tanks, in road racing we are generally required to box them in to separate them from the driver. I would not care to drive a car with the tank open in the cockpit. It's easy to cover with a sheet metal box with some screws or dzus fasteners to enable removing the box for service.

As for tires, we learned that regular front runners don't like being on a spinning car. When we spun the truck, immediately after the 222 camaro spun, it ripped one of the rear tires off and destroyed the wheel. We were happy to stay on the ground but I think it would take more speed to blow that truck over.
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Offline thundersalt

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Re: Safety concerns in our racing.
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2016, 11:00:51 AM »
https://youtu.be/Hk5DTlgAtt4
hard to tell but it may have a stock spoiler........Glen announcing :cheers:
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Offline Bob Drury

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Re: Safety concerns in our racing.
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2016, 12:45:24 PM »
  I built a trap door into My rear spoiler after the Stringfellow and Kirk crash.  If You look at the entire series of still photo's of the incident the car starts to lift and as it rises the spoiler bows up in the center.  The higher it goes the more it distorts and resembles a parachute blossoming.
  Being to stupid to download pictures on this sight, if someone else would post these for Me I will email them to You.
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Offline jl222

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Re: Safety concerns in our racing.
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2016, 01:18:49 PM »
 
 Spin was caused by rain on track.

You don't suppose the 3 million horsepower had anything to do with it do you?   :cheers:


Not sure the rule book calls for a hinge so that the spoiler will flip up. I think most cars have the hinge to allow adjustment of the angle of the spoiler. However, I built the spoiler on the firebird to flip up and it has limiting cables to work like a roof flap would.

As for the dry sump tanks, in road racing we are generally required to box them in to separate them from the driver. I would not care to drive a car with the tank open in the cockpit. It's easy to cover with a sheet metal box with some screws or dzus fasteners to enable removing the box for service.

As for tires, we learned that regular front runners don't like being on a spinning car. When we spun the truck, immediately after the 222 camaro spun, it ripped one of the rear tires off and destroyed the wheel. We were happy to stay on the ground but I think it would take more speed to blow that truck over.

  Yeah...less hp would have helped but we never have trouble spinning, or spinning the tires in high gear at Bville

  I pulled the chute before it went around and after stopping it was sopping wet.

 I spun in the 3rd mile were did you guys spin? There was a slight sprinkle when I left, must have been more at the 3.

 I would like to hinge our spoiler but the deck lit is rounded across and up. A major redo, a good idea but not possible on all cars if you want a 10in. spoiler. A 12in spoiler would give more down force and less spins.

             JL222

Offline Avanti Kid

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Re: Safety concerns in our racing.
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2016, 01:57:31 PM »
Thanks everyone for those good inputs, especially javajoe79, your remarks were very helpful, I did look at my 2016 Rule Book and at section 4.CC.8 Spoiler item "Approach One" no longer calls out a hinge, but in my 2013 Rule Book is does call out the use of a hinge, (it says The spoiler must have a continuous surface no wider than the outside edge of the rear tires, the maximum cord measured on top surface at the center of car can be 10". A 1" tab or a hinge can be added to the leading edge of the spoiler for mounting purposes only.) but the mention of a hinge is missing from Approach 1 now, but I think it is a good idea to use a hinge to dump the air if it can be installed on your car, but this is meant to be just a suggestion, thanks everyone for you very helpful remarks, see you at Speed Week.



Original owner of 1963 Avanti; Age 84
2006 Bonneville 200 MPH Club Member
Canyon Country, CA
215.6 mph 289 CI Studebaker engine