Author Topic: Are these legal leathers?  (Read 10589 times)

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Offline JackD

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BETTER
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2006, 04:37:52 PM »
The back protection that is required in many other types of racing is neglected in SCTA.
Expert opinions agree that it is more appropriate than an all leather for supposed fire protection. :wink:
"I would rather lose going fast enough to win than win going slow enough to lose."
"That horrible smell is dirty feet being held to the fire"

Offline hawkwind

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Re: BETTER
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2006, 12:40:00 AM »
Quote from: JackD
The back protection that is required in many other types of racing is neglected in SCTA.
Expert opinions agree that it is more appropriate than an all leather for supposed fire protection. :wink:


Not so with the DLRA  mandatory for all classes :)
Gary
slower than most

Offline JackD

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Re: BETTER
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2006, 02:43:08 AM »
Quote from: hawkwind
Quote from: JackD
The back protection that is required in many other types of racing is neglected in SCTA.
Expert opinions agree that it is more appropriate than an all leather for supposed fire protection. :wink:


Not so with the DLRA  mandatory for all classes :)
Gary


Good job DLRA and Gary.
Leading by example is the best-first step and the sanction body owes it to the participants. \:D/
"I would rather lose going fast enough to win than win going slow enough to lose."
"That horrible smell is dirty feet being held to the fire"

Offline kspz3

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Leathers - a new comers point of view
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2006, 04:58:13 PM »
So let me weigh in here. I am new to land speed racing. I made my first event at Maxton in September (planning Maxton & Bonneville in 2007)- in my brand new leathers built to Maxton/Bonneville spec by Vanson - $1425 - including my drag racing nick name Tin Man on the back. The nick name came from my conservative approach to racing with so much protective gear that my wife jokingly gave me the name in response to how I appeared with all my armored gear. Unfortunately, my drag racing gear - or any off the shelf gear that I am aware of can not meet the Bonneville/Maxton spec - so $1425 later, (not counting the additional $1,100 in helmet, gloves and boots), I am confident that I have the ultimate setup for a dismount on salt or asphalt at speeds of 200MPH or so.......BUT - I also believe that this set-up  increases the likelihood of a possible accident as a result of decreased mobility from the all leather, heavily armored suit as well as the additional fatigue and effects of the excessive heat including further restriction of movement from sweating, reduced driver awareness/capacity from heat exhaustion and greater steam risk in the event of the fire situation. I earnestly believe that the specs have gone too far at the peril of the rider (and their pocketbook) - as the effects of heat at any of the four major LSR venues can be extreme and justify appropriate ventilation and cloth inserts to improve mobility required to safely manage driving activities on a high speed runs.

I would encourage the rules committee to reconsider their current position in the interest of the riders safety - despite the fact that some of us have bore unnecessary expenses to conform to this poorly conceived standard. Also I would encourage the rules committee to spend a few hours in the baking sun in a full set of Bonnie spec leathers, boots and helmet - while considering this much needed rule revision - as I am confident this exercise will motivate reconsidering the current standard.
Regards,
Kevin
AKA - The Tin Man

dwarner

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Are these legal leathers?
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2006, 08:37:21 AM »
"Also I would encourage the rules committee to spend a few hours in the baking sun in a full set of Bonnie spec leathers, boots and helmet - while considering this much needed rule revision - as I am confident this exercise will motivate reconsidering the current standard"

What makes you think that the rules committee/riders committee members are not participants?

Unlike other racing organizations our offiicals are also involved at the participant level.

DW

Offline Seldom Seen Slim

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Leathers
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2006, 09:33:18 AM »
When Nancy and I got our new leathers a year or two ago -- we ordered them with hot weather and bright sunlight in mind.  They're white/silver/light blue -- and way cooler than the dark ones we used to have.

I'm on a M/C committee or two.  I have frequently mentioned to racers that - when they are shopping for new leathers - they should consider getting the new suit in light, sun-reflecting colors.  Some other things that sure help are two-piece leathers, so the rider can don the pants when five or six vehicles from the start, and only put the jacket on later -- when the run is more imminent.  Also - I wear a Kevlar long-sleeve undershirt.  It's got a coarse weave that's great for wicking moisture towards the breeze -- I stay quite a bit cooler when wearing it, both without the jacket on and even when I'm fully suited-up.  I wear spandex bicycle-rider's pants under the leathers.  While there are some that might giggle when I walk around in the spandex (Damn, I know this line is going to show up quoted by one of you smart-butts!), I can move around freely in the leathers and stay much more comfortable than I would be if my sweat-soaked legs were directly in contact with the lining of the leathers.

Nancy and I (and my crew) make sure that whomever of us is soon to make a run stays well-hydrated -- we carry a 2 1/2 gallon jug of sport drink-on-ice and darn near force the rider-to-be to drink of it.  I learned the need to have someone "force" me to drink at a riding school one time -- the track steward, about to send me out for a few laps at Road America -- reminded me how hot it was, and asked if I had had enough to drink.  I said yes -- but about two laps later was upside down in the gravel from having gone too hot into a corner because I was woozy.  I now have others INSIST that I drink something while waiting in line.

My leathers meet both SCTA and ECTA requirements for perforations, armor, etc.  I can move around freely and don't feel restricted by "bulk" or "too much armor" -- for sure I'm less restricted that I would be by a body cast and lots of bandages and skin grafts.  As for steam burns -- well, I do what I can to minimise the risks, such as donning the jacket at the last minute so I don't sweat inside the leathers so much.  You do what you can. . .
Jon E. Wennerberg
 a/k/a Seldom Seen Slim
 Skandia, Michigan
 (that's way up north)
2 Club member x2
Owner of landracing.com

Offline JackD

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JUST FOR THE RECORD
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2006, 09:50:04 AM »
The ill advised leather ruling that has received so much attention
originates from the least experience you will ever see.
The chair for example has never had a fire nor even an entry and the
incident that prompted the change was never even researched to
include input from the expert rider / victim or anybody else with suitable and valid experience.
 Review of the comments here and elsewhere might go a long way towards better rider protection.
The last time the MC chair spoke here on another rule, demonstrated a complete lack of basic
understanding of a rule that was misapplied , then he lied about it's origin and was quickly caught.

"You can fool some of the people some of the time but experience quickly tires of a fool."
"I would rather lose going fast enough to win than win going slow enough to lose."
"That horrible smell is dirty feet being held to the fire"

Offline kspz3

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Are these legal leathers?
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2006, 09:53:21 AM »
Quote from: dwarner
"Also I would encourage the rules committee to spend a few hours in the baking sun in a full set of Bonnie spec leathers, boots and helmet - while considering this much needed rule revision - as I am confident this exercise will motivate reconsidering the current standard"

What makes you think that the rules committee/riders committee members are not participants?

Unlike other racing organizations our offiicals are also involved at the participant level.

DW


DW,
I guess I assumed that the rules committee had folks that are not riders based upon what I believe was questionable judgment (IMHO). Coming from drag racing where we are baked mercilessly by the car folks as they frequently break and cause delays while we bake on the asphalt having been called forward long before needed - In my experience at many tracks there is a common lack of accommodation for motorcycle riders at these events that ultimately increase the risk of the motorcycle community. Whether or not the rules committee has riders I still believe that this group has erred at the expense of the riders - and have needlessly increased the risk and cost of participating in these events - which I am sure was not their intent. As a follow-up question do you agree or disagree with my perspective on the issue - as it is a real issue of safety and concern.
No disrespect intended...... Kevin

Offline panchop

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Are these legal leathers?
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2006, 10:30:59 AM »
With so much of the leather rules being geared towards preventing injury from fire/hot oil is spandex an issue. When I was calling around to get a suit made I spoke with Donna at Bates leather. She pretty much said she was the one responsible for writing the rules in their current form. Salesman chatter, I don't know. Just thought I'd mention it. I'll conform to whatever the rules are, and am certainly willing to defer to more knoweldgable LSR people. Still the are going to be unusually uncomfortable leathers and the rules have made them just about impossible to buy of the rack.

Offline kspz3

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Re: Leathers
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2006, 10:38:16 AM »
Quote from: Seldom Seen Slim
When Nancy and I got our new leathers a year or two ago -- we ordered them with hot weather and bright sunlight in mind.  They're white/silver/light blue -- and way cooler than the dark ones we used to have.

I'm on a M/C committee or two.  I have frequently mentioned to racers that - when they are shopping for new leathers - they should consider getting the new suit in light, sun-reflecting colors.  Some other things that sure help are two-piece leathers, so the rider can don the pants when five or six vehicles from the start, and only put the jacket on later -- when the run is more imminent.  Also - I wear a Kevlar long-sleeve undershirt.  It's got a coarse weave that's great for wicking moisture towards the breeze -- I stay quite a bit cooler when wearing it, both without the jacket on and even when I'm fully suited-up.  I wear spandex bicycle-rider's pants under the leathers.  While there are some that might giggle when I walk around in the spandex (Damn, I know this line is going to show up quoted by one of you smart-butts!), I can move around freely in the leathers and stay much more comfortable than I would be if my sweat-soaked legs were directly in contact with the lining of the leathers.

Nancy and I (and my crew) make sure that whomever of us is soon to make a run stays well-hydrated -- we carry a 2 1/2 gallon jug of sport drink-on-ice and darn near force the rider-to-be to drink of it.  I learned the need to have someone "force" me to drink at a riding school one time -- the track steward, about to send me out for a few laps at Road America -- reminded me how hot it was, and asked if I had had enough to drink.  I said yes -- but about two laps later was upside down in the gravel from having gone too hot into a corner because I was woozy.  I now have others INSIST that I drink something while waiting in line.

My leathers meet both SCTA and ECTA requirements for perforations, armor, etc.  I can move around freely and don't feel restricted by "bulk" or "too much armor" -- for sure I'm less restricted that I would be by a body cast and lots of bandages and skin grafts.  As for steam burns -- well, I do what I can to minimise the risks, such as donning the jacket at the last minute so I don't sweat inside the leathers so much.  You do what you can. . .


Jon,
I followed some of the same strategies - with color - white top with red shoulders and stripe on the back of the jackets - assuming if I went down in the salt that I wanted something visible. I went with black pant since this I thought I could shelter my legs. Years of staging on the asphalt eliminate a one piece from consideration. I do not handle heat near as well as cold.

My third licensing pass at Maxton I could feel my head thumping from the heat and face burning prior to my third an final pass - I knew I was pushing it and quit for the day after this with concerns for safety. Also I was fighting new, stiff leathers that I only had three or four outing with - as it took eight weeks for production of the custom leathers.....
I think that I need to look at some of the under leather apparels to help with some of the other problems. I still believe that the committee really needs to reconsider their rules in the interest of safety.

Finally - after the event I did a surface temp check on my leathers in Florida, on a bright 95 degree day. White was 100, Red 130 and black 150 degrees.......  proving the obvious, color is an important decision.
Kevin

Offline kspz3

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Are these legal leathers?
« Reply #25 on: November 13, 2006, 10:46:09 AM »
Quote from: panchop
With so much of the leather rules being geared towards preventing injury from fire/hot oil is spandex an issue. When I was calling around to get a suit made I spoke with Donna at Bates leather. She pretty much said she was the one responsible for writing the rules in their current form. Salesman chatter, I don't know. Just thought I'd mention it. I'll conform to whatever the rules are, and am certainly willing to defer to more knoweldgable LSR people. Still the are going to be unusually uncomfortable leathers and the rules have made them just about impossible to buy of the rack.


 :roll:  :roll:  :oops:  :oops:  :cry:

Offline kspz3

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Re: JUST FOR THE RECORD
« Reply #26 on: November 13, 2006, 10:49:56 AM »
Quote from: JackD
The ill advised leather ruling that has received so much attention
originates from the least experience you will ever see.
The chair for example has never had a fire nor even an entry and the
incident that prompted the change was never even researched to
include input from the expert rider / victim or anybody else with suitable and valid experience.
 Review of the comments here and elsewhere might go a long way towards better rider protection.
The last time the MC chair spoke here on another rule, demonstrated a complete lack of basic
understanding of a rule that was misapplied , then he lied about it's origin and was quickly caught.

"You can fool some of the people some of the time but experience quickly tires of a fool."


So - would the rules committee reconsider this issue........ earlier comments stated that they are participants that are sincerely interested in safety - do others agree with the current rules - as it literally is the participants skin in the game...... Kevin

Offline Seldom Seen Slim

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Leathers
« Reply #27 on: November 13, 2006, 11:31:14 AM »
Quote from: panchop
just about impossible to buy of the rack.


And this is precisely why we get our leathers from Z Custom Leathers.  They fit us correctly, they have just the items we do want and none that we don't wnt, and they cost (about) the same as off the rack suits.

To the poster mentioining that Spandex would be an issue in a fire -- you know, I'd never thought about it that way, but sure will now.  Perhaps I can find something suitable and not so likely to melt.  The Kevlar shirt is made by the company that makes Draggin' Jeans -- but they won't (I've asked, repeatedly) make long underpants, even if there might be a market.  They'd be just fine for the application, though.  Thanks for bringing up the point.
Jon E. Wennerberg
 a/k/a Seldom Seen Slim
 Skandia, Michigan
 (that's way up north)
2 Club member x2
Owner of landracing.com

Super Kaz

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Re: JUST FOR THE RECORD
« Reply #28 on: November 13, 2006, 06:36:32 PM »
Quote from: kspz3
Quote from: JackD
The ill advised leather ruling that has received so much attention
originates from the least experience you will ever see.
The chair for example has never had a fire nor even an entry and the
incident that prompted the change was never even researched to
include input from the expert rider / victim or anybody else with suitable and valid experience.
 Review of the comments here and elsewhere might go a long way towards better rider protection.
The last time the MC chair spoke here on another rule, demonstrated a complete lack of basic
understanding of a rule that was misapplied , then he lied about it's origin and was quickly caught.

"You can fool some of the people some of the time but experience quickly tires of a fool."


So - would the rules committee reconsider this issue........ earlier comments stated that they are participants that are sincerely interested in safety - do others agree with the current rules - as it literally is the participants skin in the game...... Kevin



Welcome to M/C  LSR Kevin! Try it with 4% Body Fat :shock: ! I Don't know How John N. and Jason McV. do it " They don't STOP ALL DAY LONG :? " I Got SICK Everyday and I have an AIR-CONDITIONED RIG to Cool off after Runs! I Truly think extra Body weight/Fat HELPS at Bonneville :evil: ! I Had to CUSTOMIZE my Rossi Leather's and they were Kevlar inseams :roll: !That's a whole other story,but if it was So Easy Everyone would do it and as Craig Breedlove said on the Speed Channel Show the other night"Showing up is 90-% by then"when /if you ever do" your already committed :wink: !!!
AA Here I COME 8)

Offline ol38y

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Yeah they're hot!!
« Reply #29 on: November 13, 2006, 09:52:04 PM »
There are a lot of leather makers I would have consulted before Bates. Although the name has been around for a long time , the new owner hasn't. I've found her to err on the side of expense. Usually mine. I've had dirt track leathers made by NJK, in SoCal, and been very happy with them. But, no matter who makes them, they are hot and uncomfortable. Try wearing a steel shoe all day too. I do believe this whole rule needs to be re-thought, as inserts can be made of nomex , and would eliminate any problems with fire but still allow for a little ventilation. Just a thought.
Larry Cason
Bakersfield,CA    It's a dry heat!

2010 BUB 1350 M-PG record
2012 Speedweek  1350 A-PG record 169.975
2014 El Mirage Dry Lake  1350 A-PG  172.651