Author Topic: Atkinson vs Otto cycle engine  (Read 6954 times)

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Offline wobblywalrus

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Atkinson vs Otto cycle engine
« on: June 02, 2016, 11:16:22 PM »
Good fuel economy in the tow vehicle means more money for race parts.  This could be productive.  Knowledgable opinions are welcome.  news.pickuptrucks.com/2015/01/how-it-works-2016-toyota-tacomas-atkinson-cycle.html

Offline JimL

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Re: Atkinson vs Otto cycle engine
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2016, 04:28:47 PM »
How about "a little knowledgeable" reply?

This seems to be part time Atkinson operation, mixed with Otto cycle when needed.  It looks like a "refinement" step in the industry-wide effort to improve fuel mileage (especially difficult in trucks).

The variable valve timing (now common to most manufacturers) allows a little Atkinson effect when it is advantageous.  The addition of part time direct injection allows wider operating range (and load conditions) than a straight up Atkinson cycle could handle. 

I suspect everybody has been tilting into a little Atkinson operation during mid-range, light throttle operation (just because they can).  When you take apart the variable valve timing mechanism on some manufacturers engines, you can see the wear patterns where the engines have obviously been running with delayed intake valve closing at lower RPM operation.  For pure performance, you typically advance the intake at low-mid RPM and retard it at higher RPM (a little extra story about this, below).

Atkinson cycle isnt great for extreme low rpm operation because it tends to distill out the heavier parts of gasoline and leave some oil-like residue in the plenum.  That can lead to slow/no start on a cold engine.  During my career I saw some customer cars with this condition, notably cars left parked for several weeks where temps remained cool.  I could always get them started with a thimble worth of fresh gas poured down the throttle body.  About half an hour on the highway would clear them up, just fine.  About like me, without my caffiene in the morning.

Straight Atkinson cycle gets short on cylinder fill at high RPM.  You can have it, if you add a supercharger (to become a Miller cycle system).

If you need absolute maximim efficiency, in pure Atkinson cycle operation, you need to increase the mechanical compression ratio numbers, never idle, and limit the top revs.

Thats my real world experience with the things.  By the way, we didnt run the Bonneville Prius in Atkinson cycle, back in 2004.  We ran it in Otto cycle (only) but retained the "no idle function" to keep the planetary gears from rattling between the mass of the electric motor and the engine crankshaft.

So....about that VVT in racing.  VVT systems need a way to rotate the cam, in relation to the cam drive.  That is always done using duty cycled engine oil pressure with vanes, or acme screw type, or...whatever.  The bottom line is that the cam is opening a lot of valves, against probably steeper ramps, and stiffer springs (remember...this is about racing conditions).  Now, add very high traction, capability for fierce acceleration, very rigid driveline components and connections, and really high compression ratios.  The net result is a lot of jackhammer effect in the VVT mechanism.  Try running 12 or 24 hour events and things may break.  You are better off to just advance the cams for a tighter course or retard them if it is long and fast.  Lock the cam timing and run it.

None of this "technology" is as new as you might think.  Ford retarded the cam timing on the 460s back 30 years ago.  We used to put 429 timing gears on them to get the low end torque back (but probably screwed the emissions).  Lately I have come to think this world is getting pretty complicated, and it is absolutely the strangest planet I have ever lived on!

Offline grumm441

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Re: Atkinson vs Otto cycle engine
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2016, 08:24:35 PM »
  Lately I have come to think this world is getting pretty complicated, and it is absolutely the strangest planet I have ever lived on!

Indeed Jim

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Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Atkinson vs Otto cycle engine
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2016, 11:24:50 PM »
Jim, will we be seeing cars and trucks going to a narrow rpm range where they operate very efficiently with lots of gears in an automatic tranny to keep them working in that small rpm band?

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Re: Atkinson vs Otto cycle engine
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2016, 01:38:27 AM »
We already have these engine trans combo .have a drive of a diesel subaru with a cvt transmission .My outback model sits 1500 -2200 rpm all day and the cvt does the rest .Even going uphill towing you don,t notice any changes unless you are looking at the tacho .

Offline JimL

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Re: Atkinson vs Otto cycle engine
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2016, 01:59:35 AM »
It has already happened.  We now live in a world where big, powerful engines need MANY more gears than small engine, low powered cars.  You can make big horsepower, with cats small enough to function in all mode/all load driving, but you dare not make it for long.  The entire car design and engineering revolves around that catalytic converter, its operating range, and the specific warranty requirement.  By controlling the exhaust volume (via gear selection when the throttle is open) you can choose how close the cat can be controlled (usually below that 1700-1800 F. danger zone.)

I am pretty sure that is part of the reason the new Tacoma V6 is SMALLER than the old engine, but there's always more than one reason for the changes.

As you can see, hybrid trucks are NOT going to happen until a magic catalytic converter is invented.  Hybrids live and die by limiting cat size for quickest light-off interval.  Some of them already have external heating sources to help initiate quicker light.  The huge variation of "work" range (for trucks) means you will never see the job done with one tiny little cat.  Multiple cats, with exhaust switching control, could work but the reliability of those switching components (added to very high initial parts costs) makes it a dead end.  (I will add a truck/hybrid note at the end of this post).

Part of that protection method for cats is preventing big flow rate changes, such as repeated "throttle blip" downshifts (which explains why manual transmissions get harder and harder to choose from the options list.)

The trend to longer strokes, smaller bores, and more gears with less rpm will continue.  We will never again have control of the throttle (except to offer our "vote" to the ECM, to take under "advisement".)

When I left the trade, we were looking very hard at how to turbo engines with cats, and make it work.  When you do a long deceleration on a turbo, the exhaust heat (at the cat) goes away and doesn't come back instantly when the throttle is re-applied.  The turbo really sucks up some heat, for a number of seconds (longer than EPA allows).

I have no idea how they are managing that problem, these days, but they have obviously worked it out.  I suspect they are throwing a little fuel and throttle, with extreme spark retard and exhaust cam timing retard, to keep the turbo hot and somewhat spooled.  I really don't know.....just guessing.... but that is where I would start if I was writing that particular section of code.  

Every manufacturer has already been doing the "maintain some throttle/intake-exhaust flow" even after the customer lifts the throttle, to keep the cat happy.  Every time you chop the throttle, in a repeated sequence at fairly short intervals, the cat temperature starts stepping up and holding (oddly enough).  That is how the magazine testers manage to destroy the cat on a brand new road test car, within a day or two of picking it up from the manufacturer.  I can tell you, I have had my share of sitting down with those fellows and explaining "how they broke it".

I sure am glad to be retired and done with all this stuff.  The truth is, when you buy a new vehicle you are buying a product that works PRIMARILY to keep a catalytic converter alive, for a specified period, under the model target driving conditions of the model type design.  With the popularity of big trucks and SUVs, I reckon my young friends I left behind....have all gone bald (men AND women) from tearing their hair out!

A note about the "hybrid truck" dilemma:  Trucks can be really heavy, at times, or even tow heavy stuff.  Electric motors are most efficient when you let them spin up pretty well, with pretty heavy rotating mass.  Trying to couple those very large kinetic energies to drive wheels and loads that are bucking and bouncing down the road.....well....you get the picture.  Add that particular issue to the problem of how to perform a panic stop with a good hybrid system, and you are really in a tough deal.  True parallel Hybrids and electric cars can ONLY perform emergency ABS stops WITH the electric motor providing sufficient power to keep the wheels from actually stopping (during the brake pressure cycling events.)  Should those electric motor armatures actually get stopped, during a panic stop, you won't get them to spin back up by simply releasing the brake pedal (objects in motion tend to stay in motion, objects at rest tend to stay at rest).  The car would remain out of control and skidding.  NOTE: the first prototype electrics we were testing, back in the 80s, were manual trans ONLY and the clutch pedal was REQUIRED to be depressed on every stop.  Failure to do so took you out of the testing program.

Ok....probably bored everybody by now.

PS.   Never underestimate those design engineers, at all the car companies.  They figure out the impossible on a pretty regular basis!
...-  .-   -.-

« Last Edit: June 11, 2016, 02:30:10 AM by JimL »

Offline Seldom Seen Slim

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Re: Atkinson vs Otto cycle engine
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2016, 07:13:55 AM »
v a k ???
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Offline JimL

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Re: Atkinson vs Otto cycle engine
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2016, 10:10:29 AM »
Sorry....a little random East German humor slipped out of the past (va or sk, with k reply).  It sort of happens when a fellow tries to dredge up old knowledge from the gray matter.  VA and SK were often run together and then copied alternately by their operators (used as "over and out").  The Russian ladies would get silly with exaggerating it on the key, at the end of a very long coded duty message.  If the other end answered back with K, some officer was looking over her shoulder.  If the other end answered back with another "stylized va or sk", they werent being watched.  They would then drop into clear text and talk about clothes, boyfriends, hair do's, etc.  it was sometimes a little sad, sometimes funny.....like the night two of my targets figured out they had each received identical sweater gifts from the same guy, who was cheating on both of them!

 It was a kind of "over and out and shut up!" joke on myself, last night. 




Offline manta22

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Re: Atkinson vs Otto cycle engine
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2016, 11:43:25 AM »
Ditty bopper, Jim?

Regards, Neil
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Offline Seldom Seen Slim

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Re: Atkinson vs Otto cycle engine
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2016, 02:46:56 PM »
Now I got it.  A long time since I used K for goodbye and SK for I really mean it this time.
Jon E. Wennerberg
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Offline mtkawboy

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Re: Atkinson vs Otto cycle engine
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2016, 02:56:50 PM »
Thanks for all the info on the Atkinson cycle Toyota engines, I've been curious about that. We also used the 429 timing gears on the 460s when they needed timing chains at the dealership I worked at, really woke them up

Offline JimL

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Re: Atkinson vs Otto cycle engine
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2016, 10:45:32 AM »
I looked back at this and realized it is not clear concerning the VVT notes.  This is all about VVTi (intake timing, only).  It gets weirder with dual VVT, because you are able to have different overlap choices.  So much of valve timing choice is about getting the cylinder cleared as the event frequency starts hitting the limits of gaseous flow rates (high rpm).

Reducing oxides of nitrogen emissions is surprisingly expensive, in terms of manufactured component and subsequent warranty costs down through the years.  Long before we had modern OBD 2 system diagnostics, we had simple temp sensors on EGR valves to trigger repair (and warranty claims).  Closing the exhaust valve earlier was a strategy that made the bean counters happy, but the driver grumpy.  It worked well enough, for some engines, so that EGR valves could be eliminated.

No top end power, but the accountants didnt care.

My first experience with EGR related problems was during the years of mixed gasoline availability (leaded or unleaded available at the pumps).  Some EGR equipped vehicles had a sticker on the gas cap door that said "Leaded or Unleaded Fuel" because they did not have a cat.  We started seeing oil consumption problems because recycling leaded exhaust was creating a form of lead crystal deposit in the ring lands.  What a mess those years were.

We sure got off topic, Bo, and yet it is all weirdly related.  Misters "Otto, Atkinson, and Miller" were some pretty smart fellows, a long time ago.



Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Atkinson vs Otto cycle engine
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2016, 01:44:30 AM »
The new Triumph Bonnevilles have "fly by wire" throttle control while the old ones were cable operated.  They have six speed transmissions and the old ones had five.  They have 900cc and 1200cc displacements, and the old were 790cc and 865cc.  The new ones have air/water cooling and a single overhead cam with rockers.  The old ones were air/oil cooled with double overhead cams and inverted buckets over the valves.  The new engines are tuned for low to midrange power.  The old ones made power everywhere, including top end.  It seems like these changes have come to the motorcycle world.

Offline makr

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Re: Atkinson vs Otto cycle engine
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2016, 09:31:09 PM »
I want to "like" JimL's post but since we don't have the option, I will post it. :D
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