Author Topic: Thoughts on the present lay-down project.....  (Read 37420 times)

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Offline Steve Cole

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Re: Thoughts on the present lay-down project.....
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2016, 06:42:31 PM »
We all know the salt is NOT on the salt flats any longer. One thing that might be away to move larger amounts back to the track area would be to do it, as is done at the salt removal areas just outside of SLC. They move the salt around on conveyor systems into large piles. If a conveyor was fit in place of one or more of the ditches that run under I80, salt could be moved from the ponds back to the salt flats in large amounts. Once there, it would still need to be spread out but that could be done many ways. This gets the mine to be able to use ponds that they can no longer use now, back in service, and get the salt back onto the correct side of I80.

Offline distributorguy

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Re: Thoughts on the present lay-down project.....
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2016, 12:50:43 PM »
If you go back to that panel discussion video that was posted earlier, you'll see some very interesting "body language" going on.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

I especially find it interesting the that term "maintain" was used rather than "repair" in regards to the race course, seemingly insinuating that no repairs were necessary.  It seems that "maintain" is what's been done methodically for the last 60 years.  Body language was very clear, and the folks in that video are obviously well beyond not seeing eye to eye.  The airport analogy is spot on. 
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. 
Racing is the evil modification of insanity.

Offline crawford

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Re: Thoughts on the present lay-down project.....
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2016, 03:43:10 PM »
hmmm for the most part I try to keep an open mind to some of the solutions that outside parties put out there, but when its just doesnt make sense, well then I usually say something, and yes I live here and do alot on the salt, not just for the racers, but for all interested parties. Oh yea the video, well to start with the reason I'm sitting the way I am in it is the fact that Im 6'8" and the table was low, but hey read what ever you want in to it. The bottom line is that I do care about the salt flats because its my home, and I do care about the racers because alot of them are my friends, but I'm not a Bonneville racer, nor do I plan on being one, so the way I see it you need me alot more than I need some of you guys!!! Just saying, think about that.
Current Mayor of Wendover Utah, and life long race fan. owns Wendover Carquest auto-parts.

Offline jl222

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Re: Thoughts on the present lay-down project.....
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2016, 04:18:29 PM »
hmmm for the most part I try to keep an open mind to some of the solutions that outside parties put out there, but when its just doesnt make sense, well then I usually say something, and yes I live here and do alot on the salt, not just for the racers, but for all interested parties. Oh yea the video, well to start with the reason I'm sitting the way I am in it is the fact that Im 6'8" and the table was low, but hey read what ever you want in to it. The bottom line is that I do care about the salt flats because its my home, and I do care about the racers because alot of them are my friends, but I'm not a Bonneville racer, nor do I plan on being one, so the way I see it you need me alot more than I need some of you guys!!! Just saying, think about that.

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Offline hotrod

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Re: Thoughts on the present lay-down project.....
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2016, 06:19:12 PM »
conveyor systems can move a lot of salt but they do need quite a bit of maintenance (probably a good deal more than a pump and pipe system as they get older)

You have to replace the rollers under the belt periodically and the belt itself, not to mention the drive motors.
More importantly unlike the piping system they would have to go over the highway.
Right now there are two pre-existing over pass stuctures over I-80 the over pass at the MP4 turn out near the salt flats cafe / truck stop and farther west the pedestrian cross over near the weigh station.

Obviously the MP 4 location is closer to the salt but even then it is about 7 miles from lands end.

Then even if you did build a conveyor cross over near the dike area (which would be much more direct) you would have to in addition to the constant maintenance overhead of keeping the conveyer system, belts, rollers and motors healthy you would also need to provide enough additional structure to keep stuff from falling off the conveyor onto the highway. A large piece of salt falling off the overhead belt system impacting a windshield would be a very bad thing, and things do get onto conveyor and end up falling off.

One of my first jobs was at a gravel plant, and they had a couple miles of conveyor systems we maintained. Occasionally I had to run down the conveyors and watch for trash and pick it up before it went through the crusher again. This was usually loader teeth from the loads of rock fed into the conveyor but we occasionally had other stuff find its way on to the moving conveyor.

I agree if you had the capital to build such a system it would move a lot of salt, and in combination of a pumping system that moved near saturation brine and dropped that salt from the conveyor into final concentrating pond which could be periodically drained by gravity onto the flats you could put saturated or even supersaturated brine/slush onto the flats where normal weather processes could distribute and level it.

It would be fairly expensive but would move much more material in a shorter period of time than any other conceivable system I can think of at lower Per-ton costs.

If Intrepid needs to empty those full concentration ponds for their own uses it might be cost effective for them to pitch in on such a system for their own reasons, not to mention the public good will and brownie points they would get for the restoration project.

Offline Steve Cole

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Re: Thoughts on the present lay-down project.....
« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2016, 09:28:40 PM »
While none of it is going to be cheap, since they already have plenty of experience down the road with moving a lot of the salt on a conveyor system, why not take advantage of it. They would surely be able to tell BLM what to do and the most effect way of doing it. Going under I80 in one of the old ditches was to remove the chance of falling debris, but it may not be possible. In my mind, the more salt getting moved back to the salt flats, sooner, the better chance it has to survive. While it maybe years before it gets better, anything we can do to help it along, is better than doing nothing. The fact that it also helps the mine get some of there ponds back into service sooner, also help the mine out. That in and of itself gives the mine a reason to work it out.

Offline bbarn

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Re: Thoughts on the present lay-down project.....
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2016, 11:03:55 AM »
hmmm for the most part I try to keep an open mind to some of the solutions that outside parties put out there, but when its just doesnt make sense, well then I usually say something, and yes I live here and do alot on the salt, not just for the racers, but for all interested parties. Oh yea the video, well to start with the reason I'm sitting the way I am in it is the fact that Im 6'8" and the table was low, but hey read what ever you want in to it. The bottom line is that I do care about the salt flats because its my home, and I do care about the racers because alot of them are my friends, but I'm not a Bonneville racer, nor do I plan on being one, so the way I see it you need me alot more than I need some of you guys!!! Just saying, think about that.

I guess my issue is that I have only seen you post against ideas and not provide any details. Opinions are great and you are entitled to yours as is everyone else here on the site (in the world as far as I am concerned). What I see however are statements like these that simply shoot down someone's efforts to share data and knowledge that was collected with no real anecdotal or academic support for your point of view.

...but when its just doesnt make sense...
Why doesn't it make sense? What is missing from the details provided or where is the error in the data provided that is incorrect or assumptive?

Someone here has a great tag line on their posts, it reads: "Without data you are just another man with an opinion." That is probably one of the most profound statements not only in the technical aspects of LR but really in general life.

In a political position such as yours, the perception of others is key to your success. It is true of all people really, if you want people to like you and support you, you have to treat them with a certain level of dignity and grant them some validation for their efforts. At a minimum you can engage them on a similar level and discuss openly why you think their idea is flawed. Most people become passionate about their beliefs but most people will also concede the point when proof is offered.

People argue for fun and profit, there are clubs dedicated to debating, it is human nature. Discourse is not something to shy away from, it is where all great ideas sprout from. The way in which people generate discourse however can lead to fist fights and mudslinging. This usually happens when the level and type opposing opinion doesn't match the mode in which the original idea is proffered.

We are all wanting the same thing here which is the restoration of the BSF. Your view is (and should be) based on economic as well as local knowledge and pride. My view is based on the desire to run at high speed on a long, flat and smooth raceway. Although our reasons are different our goals are the same.

It is ok to disagree with someone's opinion, life is full of that and our nation is founded on that ideal. We must however be careful of how we disagree so as to not cause unnecessary angst which will certainly lead to a degradation of civility and promotion of hostilities.

Here is the test:
If anyone disagrees with what I have stated here, by all means feel free to disagree and offer your own insights.

p.s. this is really not directed specifically at this post or poster, I simply have seen this happen elsewhere and it is a very prolific occurrence in modern society. There are people behind the posts. People with feelings and ideas. People of varying amounts of hide. Some people can make a post and not care what is said while others may never post again because they feel nobody honors their opinion. Civility needs to be understood lest it be lost in the annels of the internet. This is just a friendly reminder for me and for others that there are ways to approach discourse that generally will not lead to hostility.

</End Rant>

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Offline Peter Jack

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Re: Thoughts on the present lay-down project.....
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2016, 11:41:20 AM »
Brandon, you nailed it.  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

Pete

Offline Jack Gifford

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Re: Thoughts on the present lay-down project.....
« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2016, 02:14:37 AM »
Appropriately enough- he lives in a municipality named "Harmony". :cheers:
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Offline ggl205

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Re: Thoughts on the present lay-down project.....
« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2016, 11:30:24 AM »
Appropriately enough- he lives in a municipality named "Harmony". :cheers:

Is that next to Chastity and Intercourse, PA?

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Thoughts on the present lay-down project.....
« Reply #25 on: April 30, 2016, 01:31:35 PM »
I'm disinclined to beat up on Mike - he's been a friend of all racers who have needed help through his CARQUEST parts shop, has hosted teams needing workspace - he even let me drop-ship my bicycle 5 years ago at his shop. 

And as the Mayor of Wendover, he is well within his right - dare I say, duty - to defend his home town.

Mike, that said, you've also been privy to many of the workings of the political, environmental and public concerns regarding Bonneville. 

As I'm sure you find some of our comments, analysis and thoughts frustrating from your point of view, I find myself frustrated from time to time with what I believe is an active key player in the resolution, striking out at those of us who are desperately trying to come to grips with the natural, engineered and political dynamics of what many of us perceive as a tragedy.

You've been a dynamite host and a great ambassador for Wendover, but I sense there's something about these discussions that's eating at you.

I think it's fair to say that we're all trying to sing from the same hymnal, but we're on different songs.

Is there a way forward with Bonneville that you see that we're missing?  How can we help?

Chris Conrad 
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline BobDcuda

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Re: Thoughts on the present lay-down project.....
« Reply #26 on: April 30, 2016, 02:03:28 PM »
My sense is that as the elected leader of the community in closest proximity to the BSF and the mining enterprise, he might feel miffed that he was not invited to be a member of the Utah Alliance, or other such groups.  He might feel that he's been over looked.  Certainly, the voice of the local community will be taken into consideration by the BLM and Intrepid - along with the voice of the racing community.  That said, I also believe he could be responding to posters' thoughts and comments in a more positive and constructive manner.  My 2 cents....

Offline Ron Gibson

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Re: Thoughts on the present lay-down project.....
« Reply #27 on: April 30, 2016, 02:46:27 PM »
  Not being an engineer, hydrologist, geologist, scientist or any other number of very smart people, the main problem to me  is every one is saying "not me". The mining company (of which there were several) says we didn't do it. The BLM says we didn't do it or allow it to happen. Some scientists and other people say nothing has changed, the salt is still there.
  I don't know whether it was pumped from deep brine wells, from shallow brine wells, from the alluvial fans, flowed through ditches when the flats are flooded or not, ran out of the mountains in winter or by Divine intervention.
  I do know there are several hundred million tons of salt South of the highway, not counting what has been sold and hauled out over the past 60 or so years that according to everyone's statements, no one seems to know where it came from. If they admitted where it came from we would all know they are responsible for the loss of the BSF, a National Treasure. The deniability is deafening.
  Without measuring, from the map, it looks to me that Intrepid's ponds cover more area than the entire racing surface and they are complaining the salts too thick in some of their ponds to be able to use them. If the salt in piles and in their ponds was on the flats there would be no problem.
  All the bureaucrats are doing a comprehensive study. Comprehensive means "NOTHING gets DONE". And they wonder why "WE the PEOPLE" want to throw them out and reload with someone that may.

end of rant
Ron
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Offline bbarn

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Re: Re: Thoughts on the present lay-down project.....
« Reply #28 on: May 01, 2016, 08:19:14 AM »
Appropriately enough- he lives in a municipality named "Harmony". :cheers:

Is that next to Chastity and Intercourse, PA?
Intercourse, Blue Balls and Chastity are over near Philthadelphia, we are on the west side of the state about 40 north of Pittsburgh and 40 miles east of the Ohio line.

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Offline 55chevr

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Re: Thoughts on the present lay-down project.....
« Reply #29 on: May 01, 2016, 11:26:06 AM »
I do conveyors for a living.  The expense would be enormous.  The electric power requirement, distance involved, tonnage required and exposure to weather/salt environment make conveyors not feasible. 

Joe