Pump all summer???

[nrhs sales]

How much actual salt is in the brine solution, say per day,  being pumped and how much area does what is pumped spread out over?  My worry is the solution being pumped gets spread out so much over the entire flats that there is actually very little salt per yard, especially in the areas where it is needed, being layed down.  If it all ends up in the dykes before it has a chance to lay down does it do what we really need?

[jacksoni]

What happens when that 11 yard loaded truck sinks to its axles on the way out to the courses.......

[Freud]

jacksoni, a most practical question.

When the pumping started years ago they told us

how much the thickness of the salt would increase.

Apparently Mutha Nature didn't listen.

Seems to me that it has decreased.

Have I any solution? Hell no but I'm not

telling anyone how to do it either. But before

the mining I don't think it was getting thinner.

FREUD

[JC Sparks]

 when the pumps run, where does it come out?  JC

[kiwi belly tank]

Like I've said all along & have pi$$ed off a lot of people, if you don't put the plug in the bath tub & you run the water, you're just rinsing it out.
  Sid.

[Peter Jack]

Sid, I can't remember where it was but at one point it was mentioned that the drain back across the highway would be blocked before the pump all summer plan was implemented. It may have been in the presentation at the PRI Show. I'm sure that's the only way it would work, otherwise it's just an extension of the process that's been carried out in the past.

Pete

[Steve Cole]

For the sake of arguing, what would it take to create a small berm or dike about 10 - 12" tall around a TEST AREA. Seems this height is about what the people that mine sea salt use to dry the water and collect the salt so you may be able to get some ideas from what they currently do to estimate what one could expect as a return rate. As has been said before measure the test area first then measure the brine being pumped into the area and allow it to fill until it overflows the berm slightly. Stop the pumping, and allow mother nature to dry it out. Take new measurements of the TEST AREA and then repeat the cycle. My guess is it's going to take 10 or more cycles to get any real increase in surface salt deposits but at least then all the guessing goes out the window and we would have real measured facts to know how to move forward. The mining people and all involved could stop guessing and have a pretty damn good idea of what it's going to take to TRY and restore things on a small scale at that point and also a good idea of cost along with time involved.

If the test area shows that years of pumping and huge cost are involved then and only then maybe the government would take this as a serious problem and look for a solution. I hope they would be smart enough to understand the longer you wait, the more it is going to cost. If the mine is allowed to run near the end of the lease then hangs it up and goes BK were all stuck with the bill anyways, so if something is forced NOW, maybe, something could be gotten from the mine while its still operating and they could see how they need to operate in the future too.

[Bob Drury]

  What would it take?  It would take a O.K. from the BLM.  That's it but if You were hanging out on this site a couple of years ago, Ron Main hauled a few loads out to demonstrate to the BLM how it could be done.  If I remember correctly the BLM came unglued because the returned salt was minus the potash and magnesium that was in it before it was pumped across the Freeway to Intrepid.  I believe that they said a "study" would have to be done.  No Sh*t................................  Bob

[salt]

Sid's bathtub metaphor could be read as "stop the mining now" - which is what I have been saying all along.

Willi

[DaveB]

Freud said:

jacksoni, a most practical question.

When the pumping started years ago they told us

how much the thickness of the salt would increase.

Apparently Mutha Nature didn't listen.

Seems to me that it has decreased.

Have I any solution? Hell no but I'm not

telling anyone how to do it either. But before

the mining I don't think it was getting thinner.

FREUD

I agree with this and would like to add:

If we were told that pumping would increase the salt thickness years ago, the person or organization probably knew at the time it would not. Companies and Government organizations very often will just kick a can down the road meaning, lets just do something to get these people off my back. For the Government employees it is job protection till retirement or until they go to another department and its someone else's problem. For a company it's minimizing cost to get these people off my back. Unfortunately I have experience that shows me this is the norm.

The questions that are being asked here are valid to see if the details of any salt replenishment can allow the process to even work. If it has not worked in the past it is a farce without an overall knowledge of the process. Even if the mining company is acting or talking nice to the LSR and BLMs face I do not trust their motives. Any pumping that does get done needs to be monitored to see the material is going and staying in the right place and at concentrations and evaporation rates that matter.

I am appealing to the people that may be reading this that actually may have an audience with decision makers. Tom Burkland, Landspeed Louise and others. Thank you for the hard work and please press the decision makers for results, not unproven promises.

I finally have some skin in the game. I have been reading about LSR for years and have been on this site for a while. I recently bought a Factory Road Race bike and am now spending money on expensive parts and am hoping to spend money on travel, lodging etc. Please help me spend my money by keeping the wonderful salt flats, flat, long and thick. And help an old fart racer to keep racing.

[distributorguy]

No matter what, if salt can be moved from one side of the road to the other, its progress.  In any form.  I'm all for any method that moves salt closer to the track.  The question is this:  exactly how much salt is sitting on the wrong side of the road?  If it ALL gets moved over to the track, is it enough?  Or did they sell the bulk of it?  IS it just gone forever?  Is this conversation all for nothing?  We need millions of cubic yards.  3.5 million cubic yards will raise a 1 mile wide by 7 mile long track 6".  Overwhelming, no?  Cut that depth in half and its still staggering. 

[bbarn]

The most cost effective way to move it is through hyrdo-dynamic action. Tom put up a good bit of detail about this at the PRI show and his estimate was either 2 or 4 inches (I forget which one) could be done in a year.

In order for it to be effective a few details needed to be dealt with.

1. We need to prevent the brine from making it into the collection ditches and having it run back to the other side of the road.
2. Mechanically moving salt in solution means that the saturation level cannot exceed a 26% solution. Concentrations higher than this will precipitate out from the mechanical action of pumping.
3. Brine that is less than 28% solution will pickup the additional 2% when it comes into contact with more salt. This means that if it were pumped back onto the surface directly it would carry 2% of the salt away from the surface. In order to prevent this, there needs to be an area where brine can be pumped into an additional supply of salt and THEN allowed to flow back onto the racing surface.

Hauling salt by the truckload would be logistically troublesome and cost prohibitive. We would also need flooding to level the surface out. Using the pumping method is cheaper (not free) and automatically levels the surface.

I believe it also will be beneficial in the slow curing process making the surface more integrated and dense and less likely to delaminate or have other contaminates within the surface.

I grew a series of potassium ferricyanide crystals in 8th grade science class for extra credit, I was the only one that did it. It seems the process is exactly the same except the beaker is the size of the BSF, otherwise, the process is exactly the same. Make a solution and remove the water slow enough to allow the crystal to grow.

potassium ferricyanide [Pic]

[distributorguy]

What pumps are available for the process?  Do they need to be purchased and installed?  I have heard the old pumps are long gone. 
200 gallons = 1 cubic yard (roughly).  If we need to move 3.5 million cubic yards of salt, that's 700 million gallons of brine, plus 2% of the total salt volume needs to be trucked to the other side of the pump where it can be added later to avoid precipitation that would clog the pipes (aka supercharging).  Damn I hope my math is wrong, but given the decades of mining, I figured the numbers would be staggering.  And this is just enough to be able to race, not a long term replacement of anywhere near enough salt.   

Again, my question, what pumps are available?  How many years will it take to raise a 1x7 mile section of the course 6" (my rough numbers as calculated above)?  How many square miles will this actually precipitate out to and what is the resulting salt layer that will occur from moving this volume of salt?  I guarantee most of you are better at math than I am.   This looks bleak.  How much salt is available to be moved? 

Step one.  Build dikes, do not allow access of any more surface brine to leave the race track, at any cost. 

[Ron Gibson]

If it took 60+ years to take it away by pumping saturated brine South, I don't see any quick repair by pumping non- saturated brine North part of the year while still pumping saturated brine South part of the year. Are the pumps going North as large as the pumps going South??? = net loss. Been pumping North somewhat erratically since '89' and Salt still going away. Color me skeptical.

Ron

[Peter Jack]

My understanding is that the plan includes blocking off the drainage to the south. Apparently they aren't getting that much of their production from the race course area and it could be halted with minimum effect. I think that may have been part of the PRI presentation. If not it was in some of the more recent information that's been published.

Pete